Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
By the way.. price predictions are always very hard and I am actually surprised how short lived the heavy bitcoin pump was, but I thinks it's very likely, that even the core fools will now enter a bearish sentiment. This phyrrus victory for them might create a nasty hangover. What are they supposed to speculate about now?

- They "defended" Bitcoin successfully, the attack is over.. and now?
- Segwit is activated, and now?
- Lightning is "around the corner" for years now, what exciting magic can they pump now?

Radio transmitted transactions? Satellite dishes?
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
I'm surprised by the 2x shelving but not pessimistic. My guess is the miners aborted because they really did think it would be a showdown that was too dangerous to have now, especially as Bitcoin seems to be continuing its fairly smooth, fairly predictable two-year exponential rise with no signs of slowing down - despite what we see as being perilously hamstrung by the 3 TPS barrier.



Log chart, see from late 2015:



The lack of reliable-looking prediction markets also continues to be a key issue, as without that bellweather they need to rely on various other mercurial signs that make certainty elusive.

Assembling a few facts, a picture emerges:

Fact 1) The whole cryptocurrency complex is in a bubble. People are buying things like Doge and Monacoin without any understanding of what they are. Bitcoin is benefitting from this as well. It is being bought without regard to fundamentals.

Fact 2) The fundamentals for BTC are bad, but only by "choice." At any time they could be changed by a fork, even "2x rides again" when fees reach $50. But see (1). It doesn't seem to matter right now. The speculation is radically future-oriented all across the cryptocurrency space.

Although I never would have believed this in 2014, now based on what I have seen since then I think and have stated earlier this year that BTC could go to $50,000 without even raising the blocksize cap, and I think this disregard for current utility has been shown to run very deep. We here have been at the very forefront of understanding all this stuff about governance, blocksize, and so on. However, our understanding of how things eventually have to be can easily blind us to the way the market will treat Bitcoin in the near term.

In fact the Core side has been more correct about the near term moves, in that most of us would not have thought Bitcoin could do so well in the markets with such a glaring weakness. Time to update our mental models. The markets are simply not very mature yet.

Fact 3) Big blockers are continually proven right about the harm arising from small blocks and centralized governance and the safety of larger blocks, and this continues to reinforce our belief that we are correct. Rightly so. Yet we are continually surprised by how slow the market and general ecosystem is to come around. It's long past the point where "the rule is it takes longer than you think, even when you take this rule into account."

Perhaps it's time to rethink our approach to timescales so we stop being continually surprised?

If we assume for a moment that the investors (including miners) are indeed radically more long-term oriented than we had guessed and really don't care much about present utility as it can just be changed later anyway, and are also right to be unconcerned about altcoin encroachment (perhaps since no one is going to use the altcoins for anything either, as if all these actual use cases in the crypto space are being considered as way in the future, at least during the mindset of this bubble), we get what is actually a pretty comfortable view on things: 1x keeps rising regardless. If there are big enough problems to finally spook the market, 2x rides again. Meanwhile Cash waits in the wings for a "flight to quality," likely a bubble pop where all boats sink but BCH emerges from the wreckage of the crash as the actual commerce has quietly switched over to it while everyone was busy not looking at actual utility.

Putting all this together, imagine the following:

1x continues its exponential rise, with Cash in toe at 1/8 or so, and a bunch of altcoins hanging on for the ride. In the quintuple digits the bubble finally pops, everything crashes, even Cash. But after the fear subsides people start looking at fundamentals, and Cash emerges with the commercial network effect, backing by many major players, miner support, and support from tons of disillusioned Core moonkin.
 
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singularity

Member
Aug 17, 2016
50
132
Many of us were saying the same thing the moment the NYA was announced.

As others have noted, we can learn a lot about the state of the ecosystem by the recent events, in the hopes of making sure they do not happen in the future. Experience suggests though that the ones who won't learn anything are the ones with the power to make change happen.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
Although I never would have believed this in 2014, now based on what I have seen since then I think and have stated earlier this year that BTC could go to $50,000 without even raising the blocksize cap, and I think this disregard for current utility has been shown to run very deep. We here have been at the very forefront of understanding all this stuff about governance, blocksize, and so on. However, our understanding of how things eventually have to be can easily blind us to the way the market will treat Bitcoin in the near term.
Prior to any of the current overt blocksize fight I estimated a very similar number, which made me very complacently non-concerned about the issue until about June 2015, when I heard Peter Todd "debate" Gavin on LTB about it, and my reaction was essentially "holy shit, these guys are insane, he isn't even willing to talk about how to figure out what numbers might be safe".
[doublepost=1510186534,1510185907][/doublepost]What's tragic I think is that if $50,000 is achievable without expanding transactional utility, then personally in terms of very mundane financial self-interest, I'm still pretty happy with it, because I was in this long enough that ~10x from here is insane returns (already insane but that's even insaner), and in some ways I'm ok with the end run just being stacking an extreme amount of paper, but I have mixed feelings about whether that makes up for such a transformative technology getting suffocated in the cradle.
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
This is awesome news!

No more need to worry about S2x firing Core and increase the blocksize over time! No need to hedge more than a tiny fraction of my hodlings!

It took me just a split second to grab my Trezor and start the process of dumping BTC to BCH through ShapeShift.

I went from "Full Norway" to " @Bagatell Berserk" tonight with a crazy grin on my face!

It's just beautiful! The miners really pulled a fast one on Blockstream/Core here. I bet the NO2X crowd are celebrating now, not knowing that the SegWit chain is doomed. Because, well, it doesn't work anymore because the blocks are full (duh!)

┗(°0°)┛
 

torusJKL

Active Member
Nov 30, 2016
497
1,156
Unfortunately by calling it off we are robbed the second time (first time with UASF inclusion in SegWit2x) from the experiment of who defines Bitcoin. Users via the price or miners via hash rate.

But for Bitcoin Cash this is indeed good news.

The lines have now been drawn between small black and big block.
There is no Bitcoin big block competition anymore.

Bitcoin SegWit1x could still go up in value but it will never be able to keep up in terms of use cases or adoption of Bitcoin Cash.
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650
i was finding it harder and harder to believe miners would stand by the agreement.
as other have said, this is a very good outcome.
its better for both bitcoins, core & cash

I watched as the masses went from " bitcoin is a stupid pyramid scheme " to the masses saying " blockchain technology is the FUTURE!"

and now they are saying " bitcoin cash is going to become centralized because *drum roll* because of to much usage "

i cant help but feel sorry... poor sheep...
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
I have mixed feelings about whether that makes up for such a transformative technology getting suffocated in the cradle.
The fact that you even ask the question at all rather than immediately selling out without a second thought puts you in the moral elite of Bitcoin.

@Justus Ranvier there are obvious benefits, but you were quite negative when Bitcoin Cash launched with replay protection, I got the feeling you though it was a non starter.
I still think reply protection was a mistake, but it's already happened.

I don't think that Bitcoin Cash would have survived had the 2x fork gone though, but since it didn't then Bitcoin Cash has a better chance.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
1x continues its exponential rise, with Cash in toe at 1/8 or so, and a bunch of altcoins hanging on for the ride. In the quintuple digits the bubble finally pops, everything crashes, even Cash. But after the fear subsides people start looking at fundamentals, and Cash emerges with the commercial network effect, backing by many major players, miner support, and support from tons of disillusioned Core moonkin.
Thanks @Zangelbert Bingledack you filled in the missing parts of the puzzle. I just signed for this action plan. It's the one that is going to work it makes use of the momentum of this unstoppable money mania and investment coming in.
 

Windowly

Active Member
Dec 10, 2015
157
385
It took me just a split second to grab my Trezor and start the process of dumping BTC to BCH through ShapeShift.

I went from "Full Norway" to " @Bagatell Berserk" tonight with a crazy grin on my face!

It's just beautiful!
@Norway What has a better exchange rate? Shapeshift or Changely? I've been using HitBTC.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
The fact that you even ask the question at all rather than immediately selling out without a second thought puts you in the moral elite of Bitcoin.

I still think reply protection was a mistake, but it's already happened.

I don't think that Bitcoin Cash would have survived had the 2x fork gone though, but since it didn't then Bitcoin Cash has a better chance.
But there didn't exist a 'chance' that the 2x fork will happen. The 'chance' has been exactly zero, as we all know now. The same is true with Bitcoin Cash. It won't win by chance, it will or will not win by causes, and those uncountable causes will determine the result by a chance of exactly 100 percent.
We are just not able to calculate the effects of the causes.
[doublepost=1510214721][/doublepost]
I went from "Full Norway" to " @Bagatell Berserk" tonight with a crazy grin on my face!

┗(°0°)┛
For every Segwit coin, I hold 10 Bitcoins now. Is that half Norway or full Norway?
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
" bitcoin is a stupid pyramid scheme "
1 MB bitcoin is a stupid pyramid scheme. No debate about it.

I don't think that Bitcoin Cash would have survived had the 2x fork gone though, but since it didn't then Bitcoin Cash has a better chance.
Or any bankster controlled altcoin.

For every Segwit coin, I hold 10 Bitcoins now. Is that half Norway or full Norway?
More than full norway.


Huge success, Jihan et al. Bitcoin's market share is shrinking again (and not because it's losing to bitcoin cash).


Contrary to Justus I'm surprised about the very positive mood in the big block camp. Do you all really look forward to start at zero again and fight the next uphill battle? With the same bunch of miners?
deadalnix already showed dubious character traits, what makes you think, that Jihan etc. will suddenly have the balls to stand against a cash-dev-team when it became necessary? (Supposed cash will be successful)

Also, if antpool and viabtc are serious about Cash, why didn't they go through with a minority fork on Bitcoin 1 MB or just pointed all their miners at cash? Why play everything so nice? Feels like a trap to me. The "Jeff Garzik let's all be nice to each other" sickness is so prevalent in the big block camp it's creepy.

That being said, I just did my first shapeshift transaction last night and went 1% norway lol. Doesn't feel good to throw money at one of the SW2X dicks (Erik)...

And I always hoped I don't have to go through all the banking bullshit when I'll moved my cold storage because Bitcoin would be an accepted currency by then.. Well, core and their social media teams managed to cripple Bitcoin to a ponzi scheme asset. Disgusting.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Yeah well.. what's that supposed to mean? He has always been a supporter of Segwit.

Same category as viabtc's cash statement in the coinbase message.

No balls to go through with a fork and now they talk like they won everything.