Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
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I think there's some mileage in BU being this. Possibly bringing Classic and other implementations on-board too. As long as we're re-basing off of Core, we're playing catch-up and, unfortunately, it shows (It also gives Core a potential devastating advantage in undisclosed knowledge of serious bugs and perhaps even cleverly hidden trapdoors).

I also believe that Bitcoin's current monolithic design is a barrier to innovation. A more modular implementation would attract developers for that reason alone.
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
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Is there any mileage in BU formally offering a bounty for this?
how much?
lol
its a never ending job really, even we try to limit the protocol to do very specific/limited number of things there will always be new things to be worked on at the protocol level.
 
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VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
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Ok, I'm also in "Bagatell berserk" mode.

''This is not what Satoshi wanted for Bitcoin. This is the complete opposite of his vision. Satoshi want people who care about bitcoin. Bitcoin as money. As CASH. It was not designed to be a settlement layer.''
I think Bitcoin was designed to be cash and a settlement layer.

A cryptocurrency that is able to cover everything will have the strongest network effects, security and therefore also utility. This creates the strongest positive feedback loop, the more use cases a blockchain can cover the more useful it becomes for all of these applications.

This is one of the reasons why the "small block" vision of cryptocurrency is so fundamentally flawed, settlement will occur on blockchains that are able to cover the most use cases since it will be these blockchains that will be the most secure and in this case less expensive to use.

Settlement has always been a central feature of Bitcoin from the very beginning, a simple digital cash transaction that is equally as useful for a poor person in sub Saharan Africa and a large banking conglomerate, putting these two disparate kinds of people on a more level global playing field.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
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After having met you irl I actually believe you are able to act in this rational, analytical, controlled way ;D
LOL....LOL,

Kudos for holding for that long. Not easy. I haven't managed to do that.
I bough and lost many more coins than I mind, the coins I mined were my sentimental coins I've been keeping them them for a special occasion, I though this qualified.

I am more comfortable buying BCH at a higher price, the lower we go the less appealing it becomes. At this price we should be attracting 6% of the hashrate, we have 7% atm. I'd feel comfortable statistically if we had above 13.5%, that being the chasm/tipping point in the adoption life cycle.
 

solex

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 22, 2015
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@Richy_T, @adamstgbit
Breaking the monolithic design into modules would be a major milestone in improving Bitcoin - all forks, but especially BC :).
Agreed, it would weaken the "C++ blockchain expert" requirement which is a major barrier to entry.
Core's One Reference Client to Rule them All is a single point of failure. Fear of unintended consequences slows development. ETH proves that multiple implementations is the best way to go, it makes the coin anti-fragile and accidental forks more manageable.
Modularity fosters this process change.
Such a project needs to be scoped well. How much? Money is available if the work can be realistically done, and completed.
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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The problem is not that we need anonymity, it's we have a right to live free of judgment, given you can't stop people from judging your behaviors social status etc the next best thinking is keeping information private.

That said there are lots of benefits to making some information public and segregating other information for individuals, corporations and society as a whole , ultimately I think bitcoin offers us the best of both worlds. If you want a public company and protection of the state make your information public and pay tax, if you don't that's your problem.
Yes, the foundation of the society is the destruction of the community by organized violence. Privacy/anonymity is the weapon against organized violence. It's an endless war until the end.

„We are literally in a race between our ability to build and deploy technology, and their ability to build and deploy laws and treaties. Neither side is likely to back down or wise up until it has definitively lost the race.“ (John Gilmore)
 
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molecular

Active Member
Aug 31, 2015
372
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I've been getting some mind-food and I'm in the mood to share some thoughts. Forgive me in case it's all bullshit,... just thinking.

@adamstgbit Now, that I can get behind. I have wanted a totally modular Bitcoin for a while now.
I just took a crude look at the cardano project (whycardano.com). Not pushing this as a token or anything, but those guys have some great ideas / views (and done some great research), also regarding governance. They seem to use a sane, modular approach to architecture / implementation. They also understand crypto/money is a social thing (emphasizing the importance of incentives, using game theory) and what rules / policy people want in their money do differ. They have a lot of good ideas, it's really worth a read, even if only for inspiration.

So here's a thought about governance models:

built-in governance

So cardano (and other alts like dash, tezos,...) aim to integrate governance into the blockchain / protocol. This can be done by stake-based voting on rule changes in the case of settlement-layer rules or by enabling the creation of user-defined tokens with custom rules and markets between those on a higher layer (all secured on the blockchain using the base settlement layer plus computational layer above that). It's a broad goal, but may be worth following.

external governance

On the other extreme with Bitcoin for example, governance is completely external to the protocol / blockchain / network. That's why this function is being executed in the political / social arena using legacy tools like discussion and polls. The shortcomings of these tools lead to all kinds of tactics being employed: narrative control, fixing ideas to persons and attacking those, propaganda, censorship... you know the list: all the dirty tricks and games that can be played to manipulate opinion and falsify it's distillation to draw an image of "what the community wants". Even the prediction markets (token futures) are being scewed heavily for this purpose. So yes, it sucks, but it's what we currently use in Bitcoin.

This "external" governance model at work in Bitcoin necessitates the possibility to fork the chain to create a tradable token representing a specific rule change. It's been said for a long time that "forking is a viable governance model" and it is! It doesn't come without problems, though. The main one is the fact that this process is subject to manipulation as described above, necessitates a ledger spinoff and creation of a new coin (with new name, new exchange markets, adapted wallets and everything you need for a coin) and also that it is immensely resource-consuming (discussion to no end, war, personal attacks, bad blood, hate, coding work, wallet adjustments and so on) and harmful to the coins utility and value (userbase confusion, reduction of network effect,...)

Wild Thoughts

* PoS: I've been thinking about proof of stake again lately and I'm not as opposed to it as I had been in the past. It seems https://www.cardanohub.org/en/ouroboros/ is a cool solution and it seems the security properties (resilience against the common attacks being one of it) can be proven (also worth a look). Regarding Bitcoin: a Bitcoin spinoff using ouroboros PoS is something I would love to think about and probably support.

* Ledger Migration: theoretically it would be possible to migrate the Bitcoin ledger (for example) to a mere user-defined token (with the same monetary policy) within a more powerful blockchain system like cardano or ethereum. Of course the security properties would change and be at least degraded to that of the base layer of the host blockchain, if not worse. But still: a Bitcoin spinoff like that would be interesting to say the least.

* Blockchain/Ledger merging as a function of "external governance": This could be a powerful mechanism to re-unite communities in cases where the desired properties (consensus rules) of the chains/forks/coins have changed in a way that they are compatible enough for a compromise. Let's say for example the segwit1x and cash communities develop views in which they can both live with each others peculiarities (sw1x people find big blocks acceptable due to new research and cash people might be largely ok with segwit already as long as the blocksize limit and the sw fee advantage is removed). Now, technically the ledgers could probably be merged (goal would be to have 1 token after the merge, completely fungible) by adding segwit to cash and removing the eda or by removing the blocksize limit in core and implementing 3 sets of utxos (sw1x, cash, btc_new). Open question for me is how to fairly "fix" a conversion ratio of pre-merge tokens to post-merge tokens. Reminds me of how monetary union was implemented when the EUR was introduced: they just fixed exchange rates. Could maybe be done based on market price ratios, but would require some elaborate process involving the help of exchanges and a lot of heated discussion and market manipulation.
So... not sure if this "merging" idea has any merit at all (didn't think it through obviously). The upside is huge, though: increased security (if PoW is identical) and increased network effect. Also in the social / media sphere the effect would be huge: "The war is over: Bitcoin users reunite while exchange rate moons".
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
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On Bitcoin governance, the principals discussed in this video resonate with Bitcoin and what I see happening with BU. It's the first exposure I've seen that celebrates Radical Transparency something I'm binning to see as transformative.



Take home points:

BS/Core think they have a meritocracy to govern Bitcoin - when in reality it's governed by incumbent technicians - if functioning at its best it's a developers meritocracy devoid of expertise from all disciplines but those of computer programmers.

BU on the other hand evolved in an environment (before Slack I'll add) with a mixing pot of ideas. What emerged was an Idea Meritocracy (@6:42) (ie. bring back the trolls) I see this eroding fast for many reasons.

I'm not advocating we change anything about our governing mechanism nor the algorithm or the formal mechanism, just the principals - these are essential for bitcoin governance moving forward. There is no democracy of hyraki in an Idea Meritocracy (@12:13 - just weighted ideas and there believably)
 

jbreher

Active Member
Dec 31, 2015
166
526
Is there any mileage in BU formally offering a bounty for this?
If we're talking about a formal spec, all y'all might want to be aware that ISO chartered TC 307 about a year ago to develop standards for Blockchains and Electronic Distributed Ledger technology. Though they are looking at the entire blockchain (i.e., not just Bitcoin) space, and are therefore likely years away from any meaningful protocol specs.
 
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adamstgbit

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Mar 13, 2016
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@awemany

pretty sure i saw somthing go by on redit about one exchange saying 2x was going to be "the fork with most POW there for bitcoin"
and they built there 2x Vs 1x market with that in mind.

but thats hardly "fair"

yup no exchange has had the bright idea of not taking a biased position. its as if they dont understand that they CAN halt BTC trading while BC1/BC2 "battle it out"

i think the idea is that they feel its their jobs to make sure "BTC" trading transitions seamlessly without any down time. only problem is they dont all agree as to what "BTC" is. the root problem is they are trying to anticipate who will win. some think hashrate is going to do it, others side with official github repo. stupid BS, both of these dont REALLY matter, what REALLY matters is how much POW there is AFTER its all said and done.
 

adamstgbit

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Mar 13, 2016
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Bitcoin is a protocol
bitcoin is all the data the Bitcoin protocol produces.
BTC is the information we derive by interpreting the data.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
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Anybody have any idea whether the IRS would consider the Bitcoin Cash distribution a case where you split your cost basis up, or whether everyone holding bitcoins at all is on the hook for declaring as income for 2017?
 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
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@albin
Good question, no idea.

Speculating . . . it's not income until you've sold for USD (assuming you are not selling for a foreign currency and declaring tax on foreign income). How to calculate capital gains? Perhaps:
tax rate x ((BCH sale price + BTC price at time of sale) - BTC purchase price).

Perhaps people declaring gains after the ETH/ETC split have faced a similar question already and can throw some light. Or maybe you can ask your rage dumper mates over at r/bitcoin how they intend to deal with it next year.
 

molecular

Active Member
Aug 31, 2015
372
1,391
regarding taxation (in germany): the gains are taxed when you sell. Gain is "selling income" minus "buying cost" minus "other cost (fees, etc)".

Now the case of a split is hard because you simply can't determine what part of the buying cost of the pre-fork coin was for which post-fork token. Say I bought 1 BTC for $1000 in March 2017. Now in November 2017 I sell 1 BCH for $500. What's the gain/loss? What's was the buying cost of the 1 BCH?

Seems unsolvable to me on first sight. Any ideas?
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
@molecular

I think that's pretty much a white spot on the taxation map. I've been thinking about it as well, in my understanding it should be treated like a stock split, which afaik means that you wouldn't have to pay taxes for the BCH sale (as you didn't realize any gains).

I don't plan on selling Bitcoins that aren't tax free and I'm not sure if and how a BCH sale is taxed, since I didn't hold them for more than a year.

Maybe that's something for bitcoin.de to explore? @Christoph Bergmann

A possible taxation scheme would just add the values of BCH at the fork day as a gain for you. But I think that would be highly unfair, since I had to watch every possible fork in the world and react accordingly.