Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
UASF is starting to concern me. Not the UASF itself, but Greg's likely strategy here: refrain from endorsing it (because he knows it is silly), but let everyone else go for it so that it intimidates miners into supporting Segwit themselves. No UASF will happen in the end, but the threat of a UASF suicide run is hoped to incite miners to action. It is really an attempt to get miners to conclude that the market wants Segwit, by intimidating as many people and businesses as possible into going along with the suicidal UASF.

I always considered the following a simple knockdown argument against UASF: insofar as you can prove you have enough ecosystem/market support for a UASF, with the idea that miners will jump on later because it will be the most profitable chain, you only need to show this proof to the miners and they will activate the fork on their own. Thus a UASF is pointless insofar as it can be shown to be viable, and of course dangerous otherwise.

The trick here is that although the UASF itself is pointless, the *UASF movement* is not. The movement serves as potentially Core's last best hope of rallying the troops to make as much scary noise of revolution as possible to fool businesses, major holders, and in turn finally miners into believing Segwit is the way to go. It's a way of maximizing the "true believer" (in the Eric Hoffer sense) factor by giving economically insignificant hobbiest Core fanboy "full node" runners who are overly vocal on social media a sense of empowerment so that they rally all the harder. Greg knows UASF is dangerous if miners disagree, but seems willing to bet the farm on a game of chicken that miners may well not be up for. (And remember that even Jihan says, "Segwit is good tech.")

The endgame, again, is not to actually end up doing a UASF, but to use it to goad miners into activating Segwit themselves. And afterward Greg can claim the high ground, as he never sunk to the depths of Bitcoin ignorance that others did in their fervor for the wonders of Segwit. He sees the strategic benefits of playing with fire here, but he knows enough to ensure he never endorses it so that it can't burn him personally.
 
Last edited:

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
One way of looking at security, is in proportion to system value, a higher Bitcoin price cannot help with that one
It defiantly does, when we had a 50BTC reward and a $1 price the energy spent securing the bitcoin scaled appropriately. Today it is 12.5BTC, still sufficient to subsidies all transactions the price being around $2,000 the energy invested in the network has scaled appropriately.

The bitcoin design is optimized so the energy invested in securing the network will scale to a marginal profit above the cost to needed to secure the value stored on the network (value being subjective and determined by the network of users.) If the network is increasing in value the subsidy seems sufficient to cover the full cost to transact, this in turn grows and adds more value to the network.

Bitcoin is designed to allow this to take place over the next 100 years, we don't need managers like you to intervene it's algorithmic. You're projecting it will be insufficient and ignoring the market incentive to charge for fees. The moment the subsidy is considered insufficient by users or miners the market mechanism Peter expand takes hold.
 

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
No, its only 33% if the hashrate remains the same, as I have tried to explain many times, when you include the impact of the financial markets, I think even 95% is insufficient to do the hardfork. But this doesn't matter now right? Because after Jihan's comments I have won this stupid argument?
@jonny1000 says: "Miners will follow the market"

That means that if an overwhelming majority of the miners wants/signals large blocks, it's because the market wants large blocks. Miners are not crazy. Please tell that to your alter ego. You should try to find a consensus with your alter ego.
 
Last edited:

xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
This 80% fork in September is just to get people to embrace the UASF. UASF will fail, they claim that there is no economic majority and they don't do it. Everything these guys say has been self serving so far.

edit: Seems core isn't involved in the plan. Will wait for more developments
 
Last edited:

go1111111

Active Member
The trick here is that although the UASF itself is pointless, the *UASF movement* is not. The movement serves as potentially Core's last best hope of rallying the troops to make as much scary noise of revolution as possible to fool businesses, major holders, and in turn finally miners into believing Segwit is the way to go. It's a way of maximizing the "true believer" (in the Eric Hoffer sense) factor by giving economically insignificant hobbiest Core fanboy "full node" runners who are overly vocal on social media a sense of empowerment so that they rally all the harder.
What would it take to convince you that the economic majority favors a UASF? (Imagine you were a miner trying to decide whether to activate SegWit, if it helps).

Btw, here's my reddit post today about why I support BIP 148:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/6cjux8/im_a_big_blocker_and_i_support_uasf_heres_why/
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
2MB in september finally after the failing UASF and agreeing to 'activate SegWit at 80%'. If I read the latter part correctly and if Core indeed isn't involved, I think this is extremely bullish. The markets seem to agree.

Note "I agree that the president will be elected at 80%" is unequal to "I will vote for the president with an 80% election threshold.".

And if I correctly read the former but not the latter into this agreement, I am onboard :D
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
Note "I agree that the president will be elected at 80%" is unequal to "I will vote for the president with an 80% election threshold.".
I really hope, that that is the way to read the statement.

I can't really believe that yet, because Barry Shillbert and Bitfury are involved. If the document is legit and Bitfury signed (and the SW part is correct, in the sense that the threshold is lowered to 80 % and nothing more), than Bitcoin has won.

Maybe the UASF stuff really was enough to push the hardest core followers into the right position. If so, then well played by the core guys lol.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
If the document is legit and [X] signed (and [Y] is correct, in the sense that [Z] and nothing more), than Bitcoin has won.
This must be the funniest thing I read today, especially given that the X = Bitfury.

Since when does a signature on an accord have any relevance to what actually happens in Bitcoin.
What's the next step - protracted legal battles over a scribbles on a handkerchief?
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
lol ok

Add that then:
If the document is legit and [X] signed (and [Y] is correct, in the sense that [Z] and nothing more), and [X] uses their hashpower to enforce [Y] (in the sense that [Z] and nothing more), than Bitcoin has won.
Still, if Bitfury signed, they distanced themselves from core, which is a major step for that particular miner.

We will see who builds which blocks.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
@go1111111 Well that's the trick, I don't know how you marshall that evidence. Given how controversial Segwit seems to be, probably a clear go sign from a deep and liquid prediction market would be the only thing that would make me (if I were a major miner) comfortable with implementing it. A few megs of bigger blocks don't seem nearly that controversial.
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
This is a very well written piece. Nothing new for most people here, but refreshing to see it explained so cleanly. It's a must read for the CS and InfoSec crowd.

https://medium.com/@adam_selene/myth-and-reality-security-is-really-about-economics-b9a829fa621f

I've lost count how many times i've been mocked for repeating this very thing. Some truths are harder to grasp than others I guess?

"I will say it again, the core of bitcoin is not cryptography, that is just a tool, the core of bitcoin is economic incentives."

To give a real world analogy, there's currently 16$ trillion (300 000 tonnes) in platinum just floating around in our oceans with almost no security whatsoever. How many armed guards do you think you'd need if you decided to take just 1 tonne of platinum with you on your yacht, for a world cruise?
 

bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
966
So is Segwit's activation a precondition of a 2MB HF?

Have the miners who are parties to this agreement committed to signal or run Segwit?

There still doesn't seem to be much urgency. The quickest and most straightfoward way to scale is surely to raise the block size limit, yet they have shackled raising the block size limit to offering a revised Segwit implementation.

Activating a 2MB HF "within 6 months" I read as within 6 months of deployment of the upgrades, not within 6 months of today.

On the bright side Blockstream and Core don't seem to be parties whereas Gavin and Jeff (via Bloq) are.

Unfortunately BU doesn't seem to be a party either and it is not obvious there is any commitment to further on chain scaling, which if true is potentially disastrous.

It looks to me like DCG have told Blockstream to keep out of the way while they sort out merging Segwit into Bitcoin, leaving Blockstream free to pick up its LN scheme to move all transactions off chain.

Overall, more questions than answers and no clear way forward or immediate relief.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
And I still don't understand this verbalization (maybe the language barrier):

  • Activate Segregated Witness at an 80% threshold, signaling at bit 4
Does that mean they'll activate at 80% or does it also imply, that they'll "activate" in the sense of helping it to get to 80%? Also I don't understand why the original 95% (afaik) goal had to be lowered in any case.

And if this is like SW2MB by Lerner, why the "six months" and not a fixed date?

I'm underwhelmed..

In the end hashpower is the interesting part, we will see what that brings. I'd like to see a fork before Ethereum is at 70 % though...
[doublepost=1495569530][/doublepost]
On the bright side Blockstream and Core don't seem to be parties whereas Gavin and Jeff (via Bloq) are.
That is the only positive thing I see.
Distancing from core from many major players.

It looks to me like DCG have told Blockstream to keep out of the way while they sort out merging Segwit into Bitcoin, leaving Blockstream free to pick up its LN scheme to move all transactions off chain.
Possible...
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
What a shitty deal! Just 2MB!!! And that shitty SegWit concept is merged forever into bitcoin?

Jeez! Blockstream/Core wasn't even a part of the deal. Who the f*ck are they "negotiating" with? Wallet providers???!!!

This smells like Blockstream/AXA all the way!
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
It looks to me like DCG have told Blockstream to keep out of the way while they sort out merging Segwit into Bitcoin, leaving Blockstream free to pick up its LN scheme to move all transactions off chain.
Thank you, that describes my feeling about this. There is a reputational cost associated to backing out of such a wide agreement, which is why I'm surprised that certain parties felt a need to enter into it at all.
In that respect, it's good that BU is not part of this agreement, it leaves some room for contemplation.
Although it sadly means we seriously have to plan for a future where SegWit is active and our software needs to deal with it.
 

bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
966
Does that mean they'll activate at 80% or does it also imply, that they'll "activate" in the sense of helping it to get to 80%? Also I don't understand why the original 95% (afaik) goal had to be lowered in any case.
I read "activate Segregated Witness at an 80% threshold" as simply meaning deploying an upgrade that will activate Segwit once 80% of hashpower signals for it.

If there is any implication of miners committing to signal and run Segwit it is in the general context both of the agreement, which points out the miners party to it represent 83% of hashpower, and in the context of the referenced email which, as Peter points out, in that implementation yokes Segwit activation to the 2MB HF.

[Edit: I think the significance of the 80% may be that it means it is within the power of the miners party to the agreement to force activation.]

It is not wholly clear what undertakings have been given or whether 2MB will be tied to Segwit, but given the reference to the Lerner email, I suspect it will indeed be tied. If that happens I do not see Bitcoin freeing itself from BScore or freeing itself from the bitter politics of (not) scaling. If that is the case, this agreement is incredibly short-sighted.
[doublepost=1495571330][/doublepost]
What a shitty deal! Just 2MB!!! And that shitty SegWit concept is merged forever into bitcoin?
It stinks. The BU signalling miners seem to have panicked.
[doublepost=1495571487][/doublepost]
it's good that BU is not part of this agreement, it leaves some room for contemplation.
I agree. I hope Gavin and Jeff know what they're doing.
 
Last edited:

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
If this thing becomes the way forward as I fear, then, as I said, I'm out of Bitcoin. This reeks like HK2.0 and yet another win for Core with final lock-in at a ridiculous 2MB. But I have also seen too many proposals, agreements, counter proposals and so forth now to be really sure that this is the final deal. Plus there is what @Peter R. said above: A still unclear situation about very important wording in that thing, regarding 80% and SegWit. Wihch could change everything.

Sarcastically, someone recently quipped, I think on the BU slack: "Great! Bitcoin is truly becoming trustless. No one is trusting anyone anymore!"

As some might have noticed, I recently started to do a bit of minor code review and dev on the BU C++ code base, to help out after the last 0-day bug and to do my bit to help BU get more traction and trust with miners and others. This felt like a pretty big damper on my spirit, just like HK1.0 again, but then there's something in me that just wants to continue with that at least until activation day of that thing now and what then will basically be confirmed final backstabbing of BU. At least for me at least. If it happens.

I only believe it when shit hits the chain. Not before. We're still at >40% of HP. My mood might be defiant and optimistic, but then again, I have seen too many agreements already. One thing becomes crystal clear for me: Bitcoin's fate will be sealed this year and I might be slowly going nuts by all this craziness, but now I want to see the end, the real on-chain result of all this fighting. And until then, I will continue and I will fight. Keyboard warrior that I am :D