Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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@BldSwtTrs here is a summary of my understanding
But with IBLT the propagation time would be constant indepently of the blocksize. So what would stop miners from making arbitraly large blocks with IBLT ?
The actual transaction limit is not within anyone's control, the actual limit is a technical limit it is governed by the networks capacity. The actual technical limit you can imagine sits on a bell curve with very slow CPU's and internet connections on the left and very fast CPUs and internet connections on the right, and the vast majority somewhere in the middle.

This limit is the technical bound transaction limit, whenever miners approach this limit they will begin to experiences a negative return on energy input and draw back or sacrifice profit and let those who respect the limit prosper at their expense, the result is not centralization or infinite block size.

The inherent market mechanisms that limit growth to the technical limits of the network, before nodes drop as described below. BU allows the network to come to terms and understand them in time.

1. Compact blocks and Xthin blocks need to relay increasing missing transactions with growth - the closer the block size gets to network capacity the greater the number of transactions that will have not fully propagated the network at the time a block in mined. Missing transactions need to propagate before they can be validated in a block. When transactions are missing orphan risk increases as competition mounts for new blocks. The number of missing transactions increases the validation time and correlated so does orphan risk. - there is a very real cost that deters including more transactions than the network can handle.

2. Another optimization is parallel validation, here too smaller blocks are advantaged by propagating early increasing the risk of orphaning larger blocks when two block are found at a similar time, the smaller one is validated propagated and built on. - there is a very real cost that deters including more transactions than the network can handle.

3. There is an inherent mechanism to processing very large blocks that may take over 30 seconds (or even 10 minus) to validate. Firstly they can be orphaned by any mentioned method, or can be built on and secured by mining empty blocks. In the later case fewer transactions are processed creating a transaction backlog and a technical limit and a increasing demand for block space. There is a very real demand for block space that builds to encourage miners to include priority transactions, and an incentive to cost optimize available network capacity.

4. Compact blocks and Xthin have to communicate information in the bloom filter that increases with the quantity of transactions in the block - I understand bloom filters describing more transaction are larger, and larger amounts of information the longer it takes to propagate and validate. Larger blocks increase orphan risk. - there is a very real cost that deters including more transactions than the network can handle.

5. There is headers first mining where blocks are not validated and it can be abused to mine higher capacity than the network can handle. It comes with significantly orphan risk as stated above. The optimization here being all headers are the same size, in this case validation times increase orphan risk making this practice is very risky, - there is a very real cost that deters this practice in time miners become less profitable.

6. Like the majority network today miners will not deviate from the 1MB as the majority of users would reject that block, this is enforced through a Nash equilibrium, the same is true of use adjustable limits, BS/Core and BU depend on relay nodes to enforce a network limit. Although with a user set limit when transaction volume increases above capacity miners can be fooled with a sybil attack into making bigger block. Miners have an economic intensive to avoid orphan blocks, however if the network can handle the capacity the network will grow if not it will reject those blocks.​

Point 6 being the BU proposal, the other 5 being inherent to bitcoin, why no one discusses this info is beyond me. All these ideas have been hashed out and refined in this thread. I've just summarized them as best I can.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

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Feb 22, 2016
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@AdrianX
Apart from being creeped out by Bitfury that looks interesting.
Being open to Bitcoin and new technologies might be one chance for (western) Ukraine to transform the country. With Russia next door, being strongly against Bitcoin and a free Internet and supporting the eastern regions that might get very interesting.
 
@BldSwtTrs @AdrianX

Let me give a try, too ...

Imagine a perfect block relay, in which the miners just need to send the header and every node puts the transaction he already has in the block and adds it to its blockchain. In a constant stream of transactions miners just cut a line and command nodes to store certain transactions on harddisk instead of memory.

Is there a limit of the blocksize? Yes. Some people said it is with the size of bloom filters. But even if we imagine bloom filters would keep the same size, no matter how many transactions a miners puts in a block, there is still a limit: the bandwith-capacity of the nodes.

Nodes have a limited capacity to accept, verify and relay transactions. If the stream of transactions grows bigger than their capacity, they will raise the minimum fee to accept it in the mempool. When a miners releases a block and a node has not the transactions in it in its mempool, it needs to ask the miner (or the nodes near the miner) for these transaction. Which will slow down the block propagation and cost extra bandwidth for the miner.

So miners are incentivized to only build blocks containing transactions they assume most nodes in the network already have in memory. Which is a limited ressource restricted by bandwidth of the systen.
 

sickpig

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Aug 28, 2015
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@freetrader thanksfor the link. I find it "entertaining".

In a nut shell they sad that, quote, "Politics has no place in the crypto world where only technology matters", and guess what they are doing?

Proposing a political campaign ("No airtime for Bitcoin enemies") via a political act (the open letter itself). Isn't it funny?
 

Tomothy

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Mar 14, 2016
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I have continued to ask Core supporters hat is Blockstream's Business Model to repay the initial $74Million let alone 10x expected ROR by a VC backer. Nothing Nada. Until I get the answer I will remain anti Core even thought I don't think BU may be best option, it's an option.

Let's Fork this shit
So lets brain storm on how blockstream makes > $100million in revenue for investors or SIMILAR BENEFITS

1) licensing patents - we know they have defensive patents but also patent pledge, limits revenue
2) licensing technology - I think they could make some money off post segwit plans but not a lot
3) consulting services - this is probably biggest revenue option, experts in field and all
4) fee chanels - acting as a virtual bitcoin bank
5) bought by a bank
6) Hinders bitcoin growth buy >$75 allowing legacy banks to create controlled competitors

Does anything jump out at you...? :D
 

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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@AdrianX
Apart from being creeped out by Bitfury that looks interesting.
Being open to Bitcoin and new technologies might be one chance for (western) Ukraine to transform the country. With Russia next door, being strongly against Bitcoin and a free Internet and supporting the eastern regions that might get very interesting.
The words in that release all look great to me, yes a very positive press release.

Pealing back the PR and looking at this as a skeptic:

I see the US taking an unusual interest in the Ukraine I see the the Ukraine government appointing American US State Department executive as their Minister of Finance who agrees to a $40 billion four-year loan from the International Monetary Fund and Western countries, she leaves office just before she is required to renounce her US citizenship and burgers off to another US state department position directing the economy of Puerto Rico through PROMESA (this outstrips my wildest imagination)

I see US career politicians taking an unusually large role in Bitfury

I see Bitfury launch Global Blockchain Business Council (GBBC) and hanging with central bankers in Davos.

While independently all this new is very positive, I am not convinced that Global Blockchain Business Council (GBBC) , Money from the Ukraine government and bitcoin mining make for the a mix that should not arouse suspicion.

Just the though of the Chinese taking an interest in mining sends most bitcoiners off the depend, and here we have evidence of it actually happening. Who realty knows what Ukraine government is paying for. I always like words like experimental in my contracts, - it give me the ability to say well we tried sorry it diffident work - here are the results and here is your invoice. ;-)

I see "nice words" in a press release that in effect say money will move from the Ukraine government to a Bitcoin Mining operation, and I go OH, that's suspicious, the one Mining operation that wants to limit transaction volume and enable segwit a myriad of changes to the bitcoin protocol that will have the other miners doing all types work on the blockchain, other than just securing the network.
 

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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@freetrader thanksfor the link. I find it "entertaining".

In a nut shell they sad that, quote, "Politics has no place in the crypto world where only technology matters", and guess what they are doing?

Proposing a political campaign ("No airtime for Bitcoin enemies") via a political act (the open letter itself). Isn't it funny?
PoW is the only way to change any bitcoin rules, Developers who do not show PoW that has network consensus have nothing but politics, letters of intent, lies, legal threats and lobbying to change the rules.

The irony should not be lost that they try and redirect their political efforts to affect PoW rule changes.
 
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AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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Anyway here is my reply to Greg Maxwell, dismissing @Peter R comment that developers are "mere technicians" and I'm the typist. I think u/nullc implying they are gods or politicians, or network administrators or economic policy directors, he does not qualify what it is he thinks he is doing, just that its not C++ programing. I hope he is one many BS "software engineers pulling down a million dollar a year base salaries" that gives me confidence BS/Cores burn-rate will be high.

Not in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would go from humble bitcoin investor to typist. - I hate typing, hate it! I just do it because until now, I knew no other way help understand bitcoin.

 
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Erdogan

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Aug 30, 2015
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How would you get that hash in an automated trustless way?
Sorry, late to the party, but anyway:

The default, download everything and compute the utxo set, also depends on trust in a starting point, in this case the genesis block and an empty set. With utxo hashes in the block, you can start at any point you trust. 100 blocks is obviously too small, but what about a block from years back?

The method of storing utxo set hashes in the chain essentially makes the data volume growth approach zero. Bitcoin for eternity is possible.

The data volume growth problem is an argument for the impossibility of bitcoin. Some vocal people in the community actually believes bitcoin can not work due to this.
 

Zarathustra

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Justus Ranvier

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The default, download everything and compute the utxo set, also depends on trust in a starting point, in this case the genesis block and an empty set.
That's not "trust".

Bitcoin has an agreed-upon starting point, but that's part of its definition.

Every ledger needs an initial entry to get started, and that's how you differentiate Bitcoin from other currencies.

You might say that certain types of Bitcoin wallets must trust miners, and that means that the specified behavior of the wallet can only achieved if miners behave in a specified way (don't include invalid transactions in blocks, etc).

The need for light wallets to trust miners is a consequence of miners having the ability to take actions counter to the specified behavior.

There is no trust in the genesis block because the genesis block is the specification.
 

Erdogan

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Aug 30, 2015
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> There is no trust in the genesis block because the genesis block is the specification.

Well if you want to use bitcoin in any way, you have to find the relevant chain. What you do is finding the top block, follows the pointers to the genesis block, and you are happy. Or you start with the genesis block, posted sometimes in the past and supported by a mailing list, and try every available block, make sure you follow the max work path, and reach the top block.

Starting in the middle, if you are quite, but can never be absolutely sure that you have the right thing, is not fundamentally different from what we do right now.
 
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Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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A relevant question is, if you are presented with a node with pruning enabled, how much time and effort would it take to confirm that you were on the Bitcoin blockchain (assume that confirming that the software is valid is fairly trivial)
 
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Erdogan

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Aug 30, 2015
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The parameters of the system and the society around it is a strong force for having one chain that everybody recognizes. (We have had orphans all the time, but I suspect most of them are truly forgotten by all nodes). If you make a deal with someone, and post a bitcoin transaction, he will quickly tell you that you are on the wrong chain. In sum, the technology and the society around it, makes it possible to forget the oldest data. But there should be no doubt, so if a strongly voiced minority think that a reorg after one year is possible, keep data for 2, 3, or 10 years. Whatever number of years is chosen, it breaks the ever expanding data, therefore bitcoin is impossible, myth.
 
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