Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,001
4,290
The real victim in the end here is Adam Back
Something tells me you might be right, but I find it very hard to believe he didn't know full well what was going on? Even if he's not guilty he is complicit. From exchanges i've seen he hasn't understood the economic incentives. Have you ever tried to get him talking about economics? He just doesn't come across as competent in the Austrian field. Perhaps it is a case of ego stroking and a persecution complex; but where were the cypherpunk principles?

"One could pass laws against it, but the freedom of speech, even more than privacy, is fundamental to an open society; we seek not to restrict any speech at all. If many parties speak together in the same forum, each can speak to all the others and aggregate together knowledge about individuals and other parties. The power of electronic communications has enabled such group speech, and it will not go away merely because we might want it to."

He crossed the line in my opinion. Shame.
 

go1111111

Active Member
Just because Jihan happens to be in a universe where some bad actors are pushing something that doesn't even completely break his proprietary technology, he is now obligated to disclose his trade secret? I might be missing something, but it seems like Jihan didn't violate either the NAP or anybody's explicit trust, so there doesn't really seem to be a moral issue. Jihan is not a politician, he is the CEO of a business.
I'm not suggesting he should have disclosed his trade secret. I do think (if the allegations are true) that he violated people's trust by intentionally misleading them about his reasons for opposing SegWit. I am suggesting that his actions are harming Bitcoin for his own benefit. Part of what makes Bitcoin work is that the users' have the ability to punish miners for acting antisocially, and miners know this. This helps keep incentives not too misaligned. This is one reason why we don't expect large miners to band together and start double spending.

@go1111111 Any non-ASICBOOST miner signaling Segwit has an equally large conflict of interest, since mining is zero-sum.
To the extent that their signalling SegWit harms Bitcoin and benefits miners, I think this is also something users should consider punishing.

In general, it is in the interest of users to make mining as much of a commodity as possible, so doing things which 'level the playing field' is a legitimate aim. The miners aren't doing users any favors by mining. If we changed the PoW we won't have wronged them. If the current mining situation could be improved by a fork in a way that benefits users and hurts miners, we should go for it. As long as there is "free money" up for grabs via block rewards and fees, people will mine. Miners are there to serve users, and all miners are replaceable.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
The real victim in the end here is Adam Back, who by all appearances thought he would become celebrated as Satoshi II, but instead got roped into employing "Wikipedia" Greg, who is finally cashing in for peak community-splitting drama.
It's hard to cheat an honest man.
[doublepost=1491533202][/doublepost]
Sadly there is no BLOCKSTREAM_CORE_MAX_POPCORN_LIMIT!
Could we get a BITCOIN_MAX_MAXWELL_LIMIT and set it to 0?
[doublepost=1491533455][/doublepost]The obvious way for Jihan to prove that he hasn't been using the ASICBOOST technology would be to turn it on for a few days :)
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
The obvious way for Jihan to prove that he hasn't been using the ASICBOOST technology would be to turn it on for a few days :)
Seriously.

There is no actual testable claim, b/c the Core troll army is throwing every conceivable accusation at the wall and seeing what sticks, you can't even pin down what they're saying.

If they insinuate S9's operate with this only connected to Antpool, then that's a trivial test (you'll find out really quickly whether you get more shares on Antpool vs other public pools, in fact if this were happening I don't believe that some home miner wouldn't have noticed accidentally from looking at how backup pools perform).

So then the solution there is to claim that only Bitmain's own hardware is doing it. But then is this worth designing and producing an entirely different chip instead of leveraging the fact that they already spent the overhead on a design that they're selling? ... .crickets....

Then the goalpost switches to claim that you can activate "ASICBOOST" via stratum on Bitmain hardware, but the parameter involved is how many bits in the version field you're willing to use.... which....is....the non-"covert" version....

Until they decide what the allegation even is in the first place, I'm not sure anybody can actually evaluate anything here.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
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The allegation now is that sure maybe Bitmain did nothing wrong and Greg lied through his teeth for the 5000th time, but the fact that this "exploit" exists clearly means we have to soft fork Greg's BIP in.

Of course any change to PoW creates extreme moral hazard, changing the economic incentives for miners as they no longer optimize for proof of work, but instead optimize for not opposing the Core devs.

A crypto-wizard should know better!

Ironically, by even proposing this BIP and having it be taken seriously, Greg has proven that an exploit exists in Bitcoin in the form of Core dev, requiring a fork away from them to fix.
 
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Dusty

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
362
1,172
Have you read this one? Seems quite interesting and could explain something.

https://medium.com/@bobandalice/conflicts-of-interest-in-bitcoin-media-c2d09364664

Conflicts of interest in Bitcoin media
I am a tech reporter that has written three stories on Bitcoin in a newspaper the past year. I have passed on a lot of stories and in talking with sources over the year I have learned that the community prides itself on building transparency-enabling technology. But many of the story pitches that are sent to me seem to be manufactured by one specific group that is not very transparent in its behavior.

Take this for example. This morning there was an article on Coindesk covering ASICBOOST.
 

KoKansei

Member
Mar 5, 2016
49
360
Is bitcoin going to be forked every time a new invention comes along that gives one miner an advantage over the other. Well I was a major miner for over two years and I lost out because other people had a lower CoC. I had to say goodbye to a business that I built from the ground up. I’m not calling fowl play and throwing my toys out of the pram. Its called business and its what enables people to invest in bitcoin. The rules are set like it or not. if developers want to suddenly change the rules because someone may or not be doing something they don’t like and making more money then them. its has a name and its called jealousy.
This nails it. The market is not going to let Core get away with hardforking whenever they find it convenient. Greg Maxwell doesn't understand that the more he tries to impose Core's will on the market, the faster he is going to get bitchslapped in the face by the invisible hand. The precedent of developers selectively neutralizing certain miners on a whim should scare the shit out of even BitFury.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@KoKansei: True, but the whole power dynamics could be the other way around as well: Maybe Bitfury is telling Core what to do? In that case, they simply 'want' SegWit now to get rid of Jihan's ASICBOOST competition.

I have been wondering all the time why they are signalling for SegWit w/o a blocksize increase, because honestly it doesn't seem to make sense incentive-wise.

Getting rid of a viable competitor could explain it, however.
 

go1111111

Active Member
Of course any change to PoW creates extreme moral hazard, changing the economic incentives for miners as they no longer optimize for proof of work, but instead optimize for not opposing the Core devs.
This is good rhetoric, which shows how Core's similar rhetoric about BU is flawed. However other commentators in this thread seem to be taking your post literally. So, I'll reply to your post as if it were serious, even though I don't think it was intended that way.

A PoW change would only be adopted widely if the economic majority was behind it. Core can't and doesn't control the economic majority (although they do have influence, based on their capabilities and reputation).

If Core actually released code that hard forked in a new PoW and the economic majority wasn't behind it, all that would happen is that a new minority fork would be created which would either die off or continue on in the shadow of the original PoW network without much consequence.

Miners don't optimize for appeasing the Core devs. Their incentive is to optimize for what the economic majority wants. Sometimes the Core devs and the economic majority want the same thing, in which case it might look to people who don't understand Bitcoin like miners are appeasing Core devs.

It's a good thing that miners are trying to appease the economic majority. Miners are essentially employees of the economic majority. If miners ever show themselves to be acting against the interests of Bitcoin as a whole, then a PoW change is a fantastic way to remove their influence and serve as a lesson to any future miners as to Bitcoin's power dynamics.

I find claims that Greg is lying about reverse engineering unlikely. See this post for details:
Greg Maxwell doesn't understand that the more he tries to impose Core's will on the market, the faster he is going to get bitchslapped in the face by the invisible hand.
I believe the market wants this change. Without it, miners have an incentive to oppose any change that changes the merkle tree structure simply because it breaks covert ASICBOOST. This gives miners an extra incentive to oppose certain changes that are good for Bitcoin, and weakens the connection between what miners do and what the economic majority wants. What's the benefit of not making miner/user incentives more aligned?
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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@go1111111

If we had a diversity of implementations with none dominant, of course Greg's BIP would be of no concern. The context right now is that the Core devs hold undue sway, which is interfering in the market to a degree we can only hope will be remedied in time.

Like all other natural orders, markets take time to mature. They take time to develop the mechanisms to route around central control. Market communication mechanisms like fork futures are a key missing piece, along with decentralized communication platforms (decentralized reddit, etc.). Although to a large degree already active, the "magic" of markets to achieve the kinds of optimizations I often describe won't be *fully* reliable until Bitcoin and its ecosystem are more mature.

In the meantime, Core has been able to get away with things that from our perspective are obviously suboptimal (holding down the blocksize limit). This further convinces us that the market mechanisms are not fully matured, which of course implies there is still a chance for Core to do major damage.

It is yet possible for Bitcoin to die in the fires of its current antifragility trials. Miners still do optimize for pleasing the Core devs far more than is warranted (for you to say this is only a consequence of their "capabilities and reputation" surprised me, as I thought you agreed that a key factor - if not the main factor - is their riding on the historical goodwill, inertia, and code-complexity-driven network effects of the original repo). Greg is doing his level best to leverage this residual weakness.

As to the claims of "reverse engineering" firmware, that's exactly the kind of semantic dither I expected would be tried. The hardware claims are completely unproven, we have industry people saying it is highly unlikely to be done, and the whole thing is way too conveniently timed to target the next person to oppose Greg. That said, the lie I was referring to was the implication that Bitmain was actually mining using the covert method, and I admit I can't find that implication in Greg's mailing list post - at least not overtly. People have taken it that way, though, and he surely knew that would be the effect, especially given the timing. The result has been that even though Jihan had a plausibly good reason for having AB in the chips but not activated (awaiting patent matters), he has been skewered and accused of something unprovable in perfect timing for Greg. I will retract that it was an out and out lie until further evidence is shown, and rather say it was a very effective underhanded political maneuver in a long train of such tactics.

As for whether it is actually a good idea to prevent covert optimizations, I think the answer is probably no, as it disincentivizes research by businesses and hands governments free rein to monopolize research on an entire class of optimizations that some consider bad.

The idea of PoW is that there is no objective measure other than how fast you can solve the puzzle, so that any would-be "attacker" needs to play by the same rules as everyone else. If you open a hole up where research into certain types of optimizations becomes risky for a profit-driven business, you give governments a leg up. It gets messy with patent issues and such entailing government interference, but in general I doubt the market is going to want to make ad hoc changes of this nature in minor cases like this one. If there are any additional considerations about covertness I missed, I'm open to hearing them.

Finally, as for a hashing optimization incentivizing miners to block protocol changes (such as Segwit), it falls equally on both sides. Sure, if we assume the optimization factor is bigger than the perceived gain to the miner thanks to BTC price growth from the protocol change (if any), that miner has a perverse motive to refuse to support the change even if they judge it to be somewhat beneficial for the network as a whole...but every other miner has the opposite perverse motive: to *support* the change even if they believe it will be somewhat detrimental for the network as a whole. Since it hamstrings their more efficient competitors.

It is therefore equally specious to accuse Bitmain to be "blocking Segwit despite knowing it would be good for Bitcoin" while not also accusing Segwit miners of "pushing Segwit despite knowing it would be bad for Bitcoin."

Additionally, the above reasoning leads to a good litmus test for when the market would likely support special measures to invalidate a hashing optimization. I suggest it will be when all three of the following hold:

1) the hashing advantage of the optimization AND the anticipated price growth from the upgrade are both large [since otherwise it is trivial as either there is little miner incentive to block or little market incentive for the upgrade]

and

2) the miners that have access to the optimization are in the majority or would be in the majority if they used the optimization [since otherwise the majority of hashpower will have all the more incentive to push through the upgrade]

and

3) the percentage hashing speed advantage exceeds the percentage of anticipated price growth from available upgrades that would nullify the advantage (but only if those upgrades are the only way to achieve that - i.e., if LN can be enabled though a different means like extblk, the price difference between a Segwit and extblk future scenario may no longer be large, in which case 2 above no longer holds) [since otherwise even the optimizing miners will be incentivized to support the upgrade]

For example, if we expect Segwit to bring 2x price growth but AB confers only 20-30% advantage the market seems likely to reject the change, as AB-using miners (whether covert or overt) have a great incentive to support Segwit.

If instead Segwit is only expected to offer 10% price growth, or even a price fall, the market will likely again reject the change as trivial or detrimental.

The type of situation where I think the market would likely accept the change is for instance if an upgrade was thought to bring 5x price growth but the hashing advantage of the would-be-nullified optimization was 10x. I kind of doubt such optimizations exist, but if they do, sure the market may want to intervene there.

This now puts in even greater context Greg's underhandedness in bringing this BIP out with this all too convenient timing, for only a minor hashpower difference vs. his self-proclaimed "rocketship to the moon" Segwit proposal. The $100 million per year figure was also highly disingenuous and deliberately misleading in an industry moving as fast as ASIC development does.
 
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SanchoPanza

Member
Mar 29, 2017
47
65
I have applied for creation of an unmoderated discussion group on Usenet:

comp.protocols.bitcoin

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/news.groups.proposals/5CevoHyFlBI

Perhaps this can in future serve the Bitcoin community as an open place for discussion where everyone can filter out only according to their own preferences.

I am looking for others who would support this idea to express their support positively on the newsgroups. Please share with those you feel might lend their support to the establishment of such an additional channel of communication.

Thanks,
Sancho

P.S. Jeff Garzik has allowed me to quote him as saying "I do support this effort" .

---

Reddit thread:
https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/648tmp/help_me_create_an_unmoderated_protocol_discussion/
 
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adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650
i've noticed an increased amount of UASF support over the last few days. no-doubt this is what gmax's sensational take on boosting was aimed to produce.

but they are doing it wrong....

check this out.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/647jls/uasf_change_windows_shortcut/
this fake signaling appears to be commen place and its stupid.

bacily they are faking support, there nodes will NOT fork when a UASF is activated, if anything this feels like an attack on USAF nodes, fooling them into thinking that they have more support then they actually do, and when the time comes real USAF nodes will fork one way and all the fake-USAF wont.

I guess these dummies will learn about EC the hard way :whistle:
 
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adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650
anyone know why BU's hashrate dropped a bunch?
did one of the miners stop signaling?
or did they turn off boost?
or what?
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Bitpico is saying in Slack that Core nodes are trying to orphan BU blocks and that it is working because BU has few nodes and no relay network. Something about the coinbase string not following standard protocol.

EDIT: Apparently this person has a history of unsubstantiated and bizarre FUD. Take with a tablespoon of salt.
 
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go1111111

Active Member
@Zangelbert Bingledack

Agree that the market for Bitcoin forks (and the code infrastructure to handle them well) is immature now, which does play a part in giving Core more influence than they'd otherwise have. Also Core's ability to convince people that "near-unanimous social consensus governance" is important increases their influence.

I think part of the reason that Core has been getting away with things that I don't believe the market actually wants is that the alternatives have all been pretty flawed, including BU.

IMO people here underestimate the extent to which people don't want to take undue risks with their wealth. The market is skeptical of BU's code for good reason. I've been a big block supporter for years, yet I don't run BU partly because I'm not that confident that some silly bug in the software won't cause me to lose money.

The failure of BU to get overwhelming support is not just immaturity of the market, but also the market's legitimate perception that BU has a bunch of extra code that it doesn't want, doesn't have segwit (which IMO the market does want), and that the EC algorithm is unnecessarily risky and complex.

@go1111111
(for you to say this is only a consequence of their "capabilities and reputation" surprised me, as I thought you agreed that a key factor - if not the main factor - is their riding on the historical goodwill, inertia, and code-complexity-driven network effects of the original repo).
I agree that's a key factor, but they also have a deserved reputation for solid engineering, especially in comparison to the alternatives.

I think a decent model of how a lot of market participants view the situation is as follows: suppose there's a scale which measures the amount of risk to the network that you're willing to take to encourage Bitcoin adoption/growth. Maybe core is at level 5, the market might want level 40, but BU is aiming for level 90. The market is deciding (with some interference from Core) between whether level 5 or 90 best represents what they want. BU supporters are complaining that Core is trying to suppress market mechanisms, which they are to some degree, but BU is making it a lot easier for Core by presenting the market with something very far from its preferred level 40.

If you open a hole up where research into certain types of optimizations becomes risky for a profit-driven business, you give governments a leg up.
My intuition is that this effect is not that strong. If a government really wants to fuck with Bitcoin, an extra ~30% in cost probably won't cause them to decide against it. And even if a government does try to acquire a bunch of hash power to attack the network, a PoW change is not so messy that we should be that afraid of having to do one.

.but every other miner has the opposite perverse motive: to *support* the change even if they believe it will be somewhat detrimental for the network as a whole. Since it hamstrings their more efficient competitors.
Right, but this is also an argument for disabling this type of hashing optimization. We don't want either side to have incentives that have nothing to do with what's good for Bitcoin. So if we can level the playing field in a way where future proposed changes won't effect the distribution of hash power, biased incentives on both sides are removed.

It is therefore equally specious to accuse Bitmain to be "blocking Segwit despite knowing it would be good for Bitcoin" while not also accusing Segwit miners of "pushing Segwit despite knowing it would be bad for Bitcoin."
In other words, we can't get a true measure of what either of these groups think is actually good for Bitcoin until we remove their conflict of interest. Hence, removing their conflict of interest seems wise.

Your discussion of under what conditions the market would support a change even if we didn't get rid of these incentives seems to assume there's some large cost in getting rid of these incentives.

Sure, if a change would be a huge benefit for Bitcoin and an optimization only has a small effect, then the bias of the miners won't be strong enough to counteract the benefit of supporting the change. Sure, if the benefit of a change is small but positive but the hashing optimization is significant and leads to the change being rejected, we "only" have to forgo a small benefit. But why forgo even small benefits if we don't have to? Neither of us are afraid of forks, so its not like we're trying to prevent some inherent danger in making any change. If a fork would increase Bitcoin's price by 20%, I'd want it to happen. I see no benefit of giving that up in order to preserve some sort of miner battling strategy that we can remove.

I think part of the disagreement is that you might see disabling this optimization as a whack-a-mole situation, where there will always be plenty of optimizations for miners to find which give them covert incentives to oppose or support changes for selfish reasons. I'm not an expert on this topic, but my sense is that Greg's change makes these convert mining incentives less likely/severe in the future, and that the only reason this hadn't been done yet is because no one thought about this issue when the mining related code was originally written.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
Well I see any fork messing with mining algo is something to take quite seriously because it can be a covert way to control hashpower, and the circumstances don't give me much confidence that this isn't primarily politically motivated, but I'll wait to hear more technical details.

Forking as needed is totally cool with me, but if the matter is not pretty cut and dried, we will probably require a market-driven measure of "need." I can imagine that while this looks like a one-off thing that just happened to affect Bitmain, there could be more of these around to use as ammo. If Greg knew of something similar Bitfury was doing, would he disclose even though they are sympathetic to Core? Or would he keep it as an ace up his sleeve?