Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Dusty

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
362
1,172
@awemany
* Once LN clients start accepting unconfirmed channels, then banks will start asking themselves why channels with their customers ever need to confirm at all.
* Some banks will move all their customers to unconfirmed channels, only keeping enough real bitcoins on-chain to settle with other banks
I agree with most of your points, but I think that ones are wrong.

If this happens there will be organizations scamming those banks with big double spends.
After a while, I think that even the most stupid of those banks will understand to wait for confirmed transactions, or they'll go bankrupt.
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
If this happens there will be organizations scamming those banks with big double spends.
That won't happen because of how channel formation will work.

You're imagining a situation where existing Bitcoin users move their own on-chain funds into a channel with a bank.

That situation represents a negligible fraction of a real-world LN users.

Most users in a LN scenario obtain bitcoins through their bank, which means it's the bank's bitcoins being encumbered by the channel.

When the banks figure out those opening transactions never need to confirm, they can over-commit their utxos to customer channels.

From the perspective of every LN client, an unconfirmed channel is perfectly valid - they have no way of knowing whether 1, 10, 100, or 1000 channel transactions all spend the same inputs.
 

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
@Justus Ranvier : Good points.

However, I can imagine that they simply go the 'honest' route and sell 'Bitcoin debt' (it works just like Bitcoin!1!1!) and use the very same LNs and client interfaces for that. It is just their special 'debt sidechain' after all.

With LN being able to function cross chains, it would basically be the rippleization of Bitcoin and thus the end of it. And then: Why not the $ or Euro as an LN crosschain?

We urgently need to get Bitcoin into the hands of the people, not some IOUs.

I just saw that the money on vote.bitcoin.com is lately strongly favoring this saner approach as well.
 

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650
this whole debate is worth a watch, but this particular point in the debate bugs me.
would be gr8 if poeple starting repeating the theory about how miners will be economically incentivised to keep block's sized such that it creates an optional BTC TX fee market.

at the very least when faced with this kind of question, we should be responding with a "a static limit CANNOT foster a stable fee market, while a dynamic limit at least allows for the possibility of maximizing fee revenue"

this is very nice pro for BU, mostly because the other side (static limit) is CLEARLY inferior in that regard.

https://medium.com/@adamstgbit_25789/bitcoin-unlimited-to-bring-stability-to-bitcoins-fee-market-6b5a4f882fc0#.hstpywvbm

just say'in
 
Last edited:

adamstgbit

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2016
1,206
2,650

very ironic, after watching core and their supports use WHATEVER means at there disposal to persuade everyone ( ex. censorship!)

they are now saying that if BU wins this means the network has been "co-opted by political maneuvering"

come on... yo we aren't the ones saying SHIT like " use segwit because its ready now! " or " all other devs are not competent " or " Unlimited block size, thats never gonna work ", or " we have over 100 devs (a list which includes poeple they called incompetent) "

is this fooling anyone relevant? seriously!
 

solex

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 22, 2015
1,558
4,693
0.5 BTC BOUNTY

Projected SegWit adoption rates, corresponding block-space equivalent, and fee-level graphic

Revising this post.
We need a new graphic to educate people on the projected effect of SegWit for on-chain transactions. Would it really lower transaction fees at any reasonable adoption rate?
  • Assume the scenario of early SegWit activation i.e. April 1st :whistle:, 2017.

  • A) Project forward the next two years of block-space equivalent it will enable with 1x, 2x, 3x the historical adoption rate of P2SH.
  • B) Separately, project forward the block-space requirement for ecosystem usage based upon historical block-size trend up to May 2016, at which point the mempool became permanently backlogged.

  • Project the average txn fee prevailing for each of the SegWit adoption lines (A) (at August 31st and December 31st, 2017)
    If A>B use fee data prior to May 2016
    If A<B use the forced-fee data from May 2016 to March 2017 caused by the difference between the 1MB and the projected historical demand (B)
Bounty payable from the BU Ecosystem Outreach budget (BUIP034) for the best attempt received within 7 days of this post.

Comments and feedback welcome.
 

solex

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 22, 2015
1,558
4,693
BU Membership Vote is Open on Four BUIPs

Operational BUIPs

BUIP043: Exploring the Bitcoin Network
@S Nadarajah

BUIP046: Faster, Higher Quality Publication Process for the Bitcoin Research Journal Ledger
@chriswilmer

BUIP047: The Future of Bitcoin - Development & Scaling Conference

@Mengerian

Membership BUIP

BUIP048: New Members for Election #5


If you are an existing BU member please feel free to make your preferences count!
https://bitco.in/forum/threads/voting-is-open-for-buips-43-46-47-48.1888/
 
Last edited:

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
It almost looks like there could be something else that drives a strong bullish sentiment in Bitcoin!

I really wonder what that could be :D :D :D

To be honest, the 'ETF ETF ETF' calls on rBitcoin made me a little sceptical of this thing as in I associated it with the small-block moonies on rBitcoin.Still a bummer that it failed but I think in the grand scheme of things it will be a minor setback.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
A couple things I noticed just delving deep into small-blockerism on twitter (general tendencies) --

- Lack of comprehension of fallacy of composition / division (therefore limited to no competency in even beginning to examine ideas of emergence, which necessarily involves the fundamental notion that smaller, simpler existents in aggregate can produce more complicated behaviors that can appear to be centrally-driven but are not); routine cavalier flipping back and forth between conclusions about node and network behavior; "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" - fundamentalists

- Lack of theory of concepts --> one type of inability to argue in good faith. "This thing A you want is the same thing as B you stupid hypocrite!".

"Watermelons are the same thing as cantaloupes, i.e. they're both melons".

Watermelon: fruit w/ fleshy seedy inside (melon-ness), outer protective rind (melon-ness), large, green outside, red inside
Cantaloupe: fruit w/ fleshy seedy inside (melon-ness), outer protective rind (melon-ness), small, tan outside, orange inside

Lack of awareness that for some comparisons, other people might actually see the red attributes as significant to the question at hand, and the real conversation is what conceptual attributes are essential vs. inessential, and not "fuck you hypocrite I proved that this thing you want is the same thing as Hitler".
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
After yesterday's malleability "test" by BitClubPool, I stumbled upon this old thread which discusses BitClub

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1152263.0

The ties between BitClub and BitFury seem more than skin-deep (note BitFury logo tattoo on J. Ryan Conley's shoulder - he seems to promote it frequently if you look at his Instagram).
---

Just to collect various parts of this 'malleability' SegWit PR op, here's an archive of Greg's followup thread on /r/Bitcoin:

http://archive.is/HLmC8

And of course it wouldn't be complete without Luke-jr 's take on the matter:
 
Last edited:

awemany

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
1,387
5,054
The more I think about this, the more I think LN is mostly one thing: A marketing name, and generated marketing hype for certain payment solutions by companies trying to insert themselves as the proper middle men.


Really: Why don't we call LN simply payment channels?

It is all they are anyway, and it simplifies the whole discussion and it will take the marketing magic away. And that marketing magic is harmful anyways.

Not opposed to that, I welcome it even (without multi-hop trustlessness for now). But calling PCs the 'LN' is just that: Bullshit talk.