Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
Is it possible that miners want to see where tx fees inevitably level off for a while?

That would be very useful data (albeit at great human cost analogous to medical experiments without informed consent!).
Very dangerous game. Instead of levelling off they could as well collapse at a tipping (bifurcation) point.
Shitfury Petrov thinks the results of their terror is somewhat funny.

ViaBTC: Stand up and fight:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/5vpaoo/viabtc_we_encourage_all_members_of_the_bitcoin/
 

bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
966
Current optimal fee is 0.00135735BTC from Block Trail THAT'S $1.50 :mad:
I'm not sure Block Trail's fees are optimal: its "current optimal fee" as I look now is 0.00149 BTC.

But when I look at the last 2 blocks:

454316 was 2907 transactions with 1.89 BTC fees = mean fee: 0.00065 BTC
and
454316 was 2461 transactions with 1.96 BTC fees = mean fee 0.00080 BTC

I would base my fee around 0.0008 BTC and expect a good chance of success next block.
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Whatever Blockstream promised miners to keep them onboard in previous years, I cannot see it holding up much longer.
I wonder if Austin Hill's departure may have impaired Blockstream's powers of persuasion?
 

lunar

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
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bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
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Those fucking miners are pissing me off.
According to a bitcoin.com article, Mr Ang Li, Canoe's boss, thinks the reason the miners aren't acting is their lack of technical knowledge.

He is making the points that:
  • Blockstream Core want off-chain scaling for their own interests
  • Miners' (and bitcoin's) interests lie in on-chain scaling
  • The answer to a long term decline in block rewards is increasing the block size so miners can collect more fees from a greater volume transactions
Common sense really!
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if you hover over the ? on blocktrail, it says the figure is calculated from the last 30blocks with a 75% of inclusion in the next block. No idea if this is accurate or not.
I don't know what they're doing, but I'd have thought 30 blocks is too many to base your fee on in these chaotic times. Even so, the backlog was about 100k transactions when I looked up my numbers, which should have meant even greater competition for space.
 

molecular

Active Member
Aug 31, 2015
372
1,391
@lunar Let's hope this shit makes miners act.
Pfff. I bet those ignorants just see the fees rising. They probably think: this is fine, even great!
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I pay 0.23€/kWh for power. I quit mining late 2011 because of that. Even renting hashrate would be a lot cheaper. It's an option...
[doublepost=1487870027][/doublepost]
The COIN ETF (if approved) will most likely try to borrow bitcoin from US exchanges.
lol, what could go wrong?!?

They better make sure the coins are borrowed in a way that has the borrower as sole owner of the keys for as long as the funds are borrowed.
 

bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
966
Here is another incentive for exchanges to risk fractional reserving:

https://blog.bitmex.com/coin-etf-mechanics/

TLDR: The COIN ETF (if approved) will most likely try to borrow bitcoin from US exchanges.
If there's enough demand, I guess the ETF would borrow internationally, perhaps through Cumberland Mining.

Looks like there could be a big shake-up among the US exchanges.

So if the ETF flies we can look forward to the reshaping of bitcoin in the US, and maybe abroad, driven by more US regulatory swings and roundabouts coming into play.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
@lunar

"Unencumbered coins" now more and more naturally refers to coins sitting in an exchange than to coins in your wallet. The 1MB cap has turned the situation on its head. Fractional reserve is indeed a perverse incentive introduced. It is now becoming obvious that artificially tiny limits of transactions completely destroy Bitcoin, not just slow it down or limit its reach.
This is how it worked for gold. Why would it not work the same way for "digital gold"?

One of the exciting things about Bitcoin for me was that it had many of the advantages of gold without the downsides. Now it has those downsides. If Core can find some way to make it physically heavy as well, their job is done.
 

Mengerian

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 29, 2015
536
2,597
Insider info leaking into price
It's funny, because I consider most of here "insiders" for the purpose of investing in Bitcoin. We have asymmetric knowledge, in the sense that because of our unusual interest and study of the space, we are aware of information that is beyond the scope of the vast majority of investors.

People often say "if you're so sure, you should invest every last penny", but this neglects the Kelly Criterion bet-sizing theory. Say I think there's an 80% chance bitcoin will be worth >$100,000 in a few years, and 20% chance it goes to $0, the Kelly criterion says you should not invest more than ~80% of your bankroll in bitcoin. And things get more complicated if you consider a more diverse range of possible outcomes and uncertainties, and the time factor.

But still, with our "insider" knowledge, we can feel pretty comfortable holding what most regular investors would probably consider a ridiculously riskily-high proportion of our assets in bitcoin, and yet it seems like a prudent risk tradeoff with the benefit of our "insider" info.
 

bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
966
Seems Bitmain sold Canoe the mega mining farm they recently built: at least, I assume Canoe bought all of it.


I wonder how rapidly Canoe will ramp up their hashpower?

I wonder whether Bitmain invited offers from Blockstream Core or their friends?

Anti-Blockstream have some deep pockets.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
I thought it might be a good time to bring this up again. See if we can expand a little.





So what we are seeing now are three additional, compounding effects, on the money supply and monetary velocity.

UTXO lock-in - Coins taken out of supply, because they are under the minimum network transaction fee.

Mempool Lock-in - Coins are taken out of supply because they sit in a mempool limbo.

User Lock-in - Coins taken out of supply because users fear to move them with decreased network usability.

Speculation: This huge reduction in supply / decreased velocity will lead to bubble bust, moon juice. Furthermore a separation in value will occur due to decreased utility of on-chain w.r.t. off chain coins. (coins on an exchange are relatively more valuable, as they have the extra utility of easy to sale)

The above compounded effects will heavily incentivise exchanges to risk fractionally reserving their coins. :(

What exchanges provide daily proof of reserves?
@lunar I've been thinking about this recently.
@Christoph Bergmann GDP = Money (unit used to measure value) × Velocity

why do you say GDP = amount of units x value of unit x velocity - value is not quantifiable by any other means other than the money unit when measuring GDP?

[quotre]
Gross Domestic Product
Known also as GDP, this is a measure of the economic production of a particular territory in financial capital terms over a specific time period.[/quote]
I found this definition which is consistent with my rudimentary economics classes: looking at the equation below the Bitcoin GDP should be a about $90 Billion is that realistic?


and GDP stays the same, than velocity and value of units are inverse (more velocity = less value, and the other way round)

So, paradoxically money is worth more if it is less usable.
When we look at the situation leading up to the Hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic we see that during WW1 the government over inflated the money supply - during that time people were saving - pulling money out of circulation. Money velocity was low, low monetary velocity allowed money inflation to increase without affecting the Price levels too much - so there is a correlation in this example with low velocity = More value). (the MV=PT) If money velocity were lower and Transaction Levels the normal monetary inflation would have been felt much sooner. - Monetary inflation devalues the value of Money. Increasing velocity does not.

It's not a paradox the money in circulation drooped and was offset with monetary inflation. The money value reflected as P remained relatively constant (the MV=PT) Transaction levels T most certainly dropped this is the causation - that previous spending turned to savings. P may have gone up but T dropped off the charts as the vast majority of production was destroyed in war few goods flowed in the in the economy.

After the war when the destruction of production stopped the inflation rate increased to pay back war reparations M increased. T went up - as goods and services went into the economy; V increased and P shot through the roof.

Consumers corrected for the hyperinflation by increasing velocity (by spending it quickly consumers were able to get better value from the money) increase velocity being correlated to hyperinflation, not contributing to it. The catalyst of the problem was normalizing of in economic measured as Transactions. That liquidated savings - releasing the previous monetary inflation held by savers at the same time as new monetary inflation. - High velocity just allowed people get more value before abandoning the monetary system.

So looking at this a bit I would like to understand MV=PT better in relation to bitcoin, can someone who understand this better help me.

Option 1
M:$16,179,500,000 x V:5.52** = P$850*** x T:105120000 ( T 1MB transaction capacity per year = red fixed value)

Option 2
M:BTC16,179,500 x V:1** = PBTC0.154 x T:105120000

** measuring velocity has in the past been described as Bitcoin Days Destroyed. however it changes based on the value being exchanged how can this be measured - i think it should be less than 1?

***$850 is the average value of a transaction at a $1000 exchange rate - sucking some estimates out of my thumb based on USD Transaction Value from blockchain.info average BTC transaction.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
I wonder if the whole line of "it has not been tested yet", "it is risky", "BU is dangerous" bullshit is maybe countered in the best way by simply saying: "we only return Bitcoin to a state it was in before, and therefore has been well-tested on chain?"
Yes. I was thinking about this while chatting with some fundamentalists. - and after writing those 2 posts about network capacity and non zero cost per block I came back to the fundamental reason I did not like BU. ;-)

First off I realized we don't actually need to set a limit the inherit incentives associated with orphan risk and maximum technical capacity puts a natural bound on block size growth. - PIB101 being a conservative approach to removing the block size.

BU is Just like Core when it comes to enforcing a block limit with one exception. Core maintains the 1MB through a centralized authority and centralized control of the "official" code. (the BS/Core collective of a few hundred developers - more like 20 vocal ones gives them the notion that it's decentralized) BS/Core fundamentalists claim it's a sacred setting that can't be changed when in fact it is not a consensus rule like the 21M or double spending. It's a legacy rule used as an economic policy.

BU on the other hand decentralizes the control of the block size economic policy moving it out to the users. - my original apprehension with BU was that we would eventually bump into an irrational limit not governed by technology science or maths but some incarnation of FUD for bigger blocks like we are having now with BS/Core 1MB fundamentalists.

Opponents of BU are attacking the one thing that make BU morel Bitcoin than Core and that's the fact it is designed to always follow the longest chain. - they call it a radical and untested change when in fact it's not. its just the easiest way for a decentralized group to remove the 1MB limit without forking.

The game theory that is enforcing the 1MB limit now is also evidence that the network wont split even when there is disagreement on block size in the future.
[doublepost=1487890601][/doublepost]
I'm going to during the next crash.
[doublepost=1487891182,1487890201][/doublepost]
Here is another incentive for exchanges to risk fractional reserving:

https://blog.bitmex.com/coin-etf-mechanics/

TLDR: The COIN ETF (if approved) will most likely try to borrow bitcoin from US exchanges.
Using Blockstreams Elements - that a good use for it (could that be why Adam was pumping the ETF) but not what I think the Winklevoss twins had intended for their coins.
[doublepost=1487891599][/doublepost]
It's funny, because I consider most of here "insiders" for the purpose of investing in Bitcoin. We have asymmetric knowledge, in the sense that because of our unusual interest and study of the space, we are aware of information that is beyond the scope of the vast majority of investors.

People often say "if you're so sure, you should invest every last penny", but this neglects the Kelly Criterion bet-sizing theory. Say I think there's an 80% chance bitcoin will be worth >$100,000 in a few years, and 20% chance it goes to $0, the Kelly criterion says you should not invest more than ~80% of your bankroll in bitcoin. And things get more complicated if you consider a more diverse range of possible outcomes and uncertainties, and the time factor.

But still, with our "insider" knowledge, we can feel pretty comfortable holding what most regular investors would probably consider a ridiculously riskily-high proportion of our assets in bitcoin, and yet it seems like a prudent risk tradeoff with the benefit of our "insider" info.
This is very true for me so thank you everyone.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
The above compounded effects will heavily incentivise exchanges to risk fractionally reserving their coins. :(
I can't help but think this was folks like Peter Todd's agenda all along, going all the way back to the 1 MB blocksize propaganda video in early 2013, where he literally advocated Bitcoin banks.

They can talk all they want about decentralized payment channel routing networks that may or may not work in the real world, but in reality they're not offering anything different than MyBitcoin wallet circa 2011.
 

Justus Ranvier

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
875
3,746
@albin The single most important aspect of Bitcoin is digital cash with a fixed currency supply, and that's the part that will always be under the fiercest attack.

The advocates of a fixed currency supply are not threatened by the existence of flexible currency supplies, but the reverse is not true: the only reason anyone advocates for a flexible currency supply is so they can plunder savers so they can't accept savers having a safe haven.

The monetary thieves can always team up with every intermediary who's not interested in being disintermediated and everybody involved has a strong incentive to pretend to believe their own propaganda about decentralization and the virtues of "layer 2" networks.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Just for the record the most prominent developer in bitcoin is banned from reddit starts chatting up some noobs and convinces them bitcoin is fiat.

[5:33] gmaxwell: praxeology: You might have noticed that I spoke precisely. Bitcoin is fiat by the definition used in economics.
http://pastebin.com/rmm6TPEx

I'm sad he is not familiar with the word origin or the definition as used in economics, but I can take joy in the fact he had his edit privileges revoked from wikipedia, so at least that definition won't be changed - there is hope for Bitcoin the digital Cash.