Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Peter R

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
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"One block can orphan three, even with normal Nakamoto consensus. With Nakamoto consensus this can only happen when a new chain "takes the lead" and becomes longer."

Jonathon, we're talking about the specific example that you gave and that we've been discussing for the last several pages.

This last comment of yours convinced me: You either have the short-term memory of a fruit fly, or you're rudely using every opportunity where a hint of ambiguity exists to keep this conversation going around in circles.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
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Obviously weaker. Because different BU clients will still be mining on shorter chains, for some periods of time.
I don't follow. A Core client will mine on a shorter chain indefinitely if the longer chain contains blocks larger than 1 MB. "Oh, but if everyone runs Core, things work really great." Well, sure (if we overlook the high fees and unreliable confirmation times). But you could achieve the same result you're after (i.e., no clients intentionally mining on shorter chains for any length of time) in a scenario where everyone runs BU and simply coordinates identical changes to their EB settings. And in practice, we should expect that changes to the EB settings will be well-coordinated. (Mining a block that's guaranteed to be orphaned is a very expensive mistake to make, so miners have huge incentives to avoid it.)

So I think it's pretty clear that BU offers a stronger convergence guarantee than Core. Core, unlike BU, becomes divergent in the scenario where a majority of the hash power begins to accept blocks larger than 1 MB (a scenario I view as becoming increasingly likely).
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
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Roger_Murdock said:
I don't follow. A Core client will mine on a shorter chain indefinitely if the longer chain contains blocks larger than 1 MB. "Oh, but if everyone runs Core, things work really great."
Yes, I am comparing a network 100% existing rule compatible vs 100% network on BU. We are simply comparing different things. A network 40% Core and 60% BU, could be even more divergent than 100% BU. (Although Core is very likely to win eventually in this scenario).

Roger_Murdock said:
where everyone runs BU and simply coordinates identical changes to their EB settings.

I agree, I think that is exactly how it should work and exactly what the current "Core" model is. Once the attacks are over and SegWit is active, we are likely to try and get "everyone" to "coordinate" to around 2MB of non witness data. Although I disagree it needs to be absolutely everyone, over c95% may be ok.

Roger_Murdock said:
we should expect that changes to the EB settings will be well-coordinated
Instead of just expecting it, I advocate we take measures to try and ensure this is the case.


Roger_Murdock said:
Core, unlike BU, becomes divergent in the scenario where a majority of the hash power begins to accept blocks larger than 1 MB
That is not Core becoming divergent with iteself...
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
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jonny1000 said:
Yes, I am comparing a network 100% existing rule compatible vs 100% network on BU. We are simply comparing different things. A network 40% Core and 60% BU, could be even more divergent than 100% BU. (Although Core is very likely to win eventually in this scenario).
"100% network on BU" (or "40% Core and 60% BU") aren't fully-defined scenarios because you haven't told me what settings the people running BU are using. BU simply provides a set of tools that make it easier to make certain changes to the code. You haven't told me anything about how people are using those tools.

jonny1000 said:
I agree, I think that is exactly how it should work and exactly what the current "Core" model is.
Core is implementing BUIP 001?! That's great news!

jonny1000 said:
Once the attacks are over and SegWit is active, we are likely to try and get "everyone" to "coordinate" to around 2MB of non witness data. Although I disagree it needs to be absolutely everyone, over c95% may be ok.

jonny1000 said:
Instead of just expecting it, I advocate we take measures to try and ensure this is the case.
Well, again, I'm simply describing what's in miners' own rational self-interest -- avoiding the very expensive mistake of mining a block that's out of step with the then-prevailing consensus regarding block size. But I suppose if you want to propose some more advanced signalling options for the next BU release, you're free to do so...

jonny1000 said:
That is not Core becoming divergent with iteself...
Well... so? More importantly, that scenario represents Core becoming divergent with the Bitcoin network. Obviously Core doesn't (and certainly won't indefinitely) define the Bitcoin network; it's simply one client option.
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
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Well, again, I'm simply describing what's in miners' own rational self-interest
Bitcoin' s proof of work is about continuing to work when some miners are malicious. If you are happy assuming they are not malicious, then you can use a separate system where a federation of miners sign blocks. What do you think Bitcoin is better than such a such a federation?


Well... so?
And BU can be divergent with itself, at least during some periods less than AD
 
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Roger_Murdock

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Dec 17, 2015
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Bitcoin' s proof of work is about continuing to work when some miners are malicious. If you are happy assuming they are not malicious, then you can use a separate system where a federation of miners sign blocks. What do you think Bitcoin is better than such a such a federation?
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here or how it follows from what we were discussing. I think Bitcoin's security model is generally understood to be premised on the assumption that a majority of the hash power is "honest." (E.g., from the white paper: "we proposed a peer-to-peer network using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions that quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes control a majority of CPU power.") More generally, you might say that it's premised on the assumption that a majority of the hash power will recognize their interest in preserving the health of the system (and thus won't do things like allowing Bitcoin's transactional capacity to be intentionally crippled). Of course ultimately we rely on investors / "the market" to protect the integrity of the system. If a majority of miners are "dishonest" or otherwise act improvidently in a way that significantly depresses the value of the Bitcoin network, investors can respond by buying up hash power (at now-artificially-depressed prices) and righting the ship that way, or by choosing to value a fork that avoids the errors made by the foolish miners.

And BU can be divergent with itself, at least during some periods less than AD
The tool that BU provides could be used in a manner that is slower to converge as compared to a network consisting of 100% Core nodes (or 100% BU nodes using identical settings). However, extending a chain that's doomed to be orphaned (because it's out of step with the current consensus regarding block size) is a very expensive mistake to make. And mining is a very competitive industry. Thus, miners who repeatedly make that mistake are unlikely to be around for very long.

Having said that, because BU allows you to set an AD up to 999,999 (about 19 years worth of blocks), it could be used by some miners (presumably the insane or extremely masochistic) in a manner that would be practically "divergent" (although this would obviously be very ill-advised). But then again, aren't you the same jonny1000 who said: "I will never run BU unless there is an infinity option in there"? So I'd gotten the impression that you liked divergence?
 

Erdogan

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Aug 30, 2015
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jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
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The tool that BU provides could be used in a manner that is slower to converge as compared to a network consisting of 100% Core nodes
To me the speed of convergence is absolutely crucial and non negotiable under any circumstances.


However, extending a chain that's doomed to be orphaned (because it's out of step with the current consensus regarding block size) is a very expensive mistake to make.
Yes, it may be expensive, but that is a different security model to the "majority of CPU power" idea. i.e. a minority can cause problems, rather than 51% (or 33.33% or above.) As soon as this falls below 33.33% Bitcoin is just a normal non innovative system and therefore useless. We might as well well just have a federation of signers, since mining adds nothing to this if you think 33% or less can cause divergence, no matter how expensive it is. The necessary criteria to prevent causing divergence is greater than "very expensive", for Bitcoin to be interesting.

So I'd gotten the impression that you liked divergence?
No, this is under the assumption that infinity is the default setting or others are still running Core for example. Obviously if BU is actually implemented on the main-net (with AD = 4 being used), I would have lost interest in Bitcoin by then,.
 

Roger_Murdock

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Dec 17, 2015
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To me the speed of convergence is absolutely crucial and non negotiable under any circumstances.
The speed of convergence in Bitcoin (and indeed, whether or not it ever occurs) is probabilistic even in your preferred scenario where everyone is using an identical rule set. I don't know what "non negotiable" means there. You can run whatever software you want. But so can everyone else. And (again) it's in the interest of miners to converge on one chain as quickly as possible because mining an orphaned chain is very expensive.

Yes, it may be expensive, but that is a different security model to the "majority of CPU power" idea. i.e. a minority can cause problems, rather than 51% (or 33.33% or above.) As soon as this falls below 33.33% Bitcoin is just a normal non innovative system and therefore useless. We might as well well just have a federation of signers, since mining adds nothing to this if you think 33% or less can cause divergence, no matter how expensive it is. The necessary criteria to prevent causing divergence is greater than "very expensive", for Bitcoin to be interesting.
I really have no idea what you're talking about here. What "different security models" are you referring to? As best as I can gather, you seem to have in mind a "security model" that (a) ignores economic incentives; and (b) pretends that users can't modify their software. That seems like a pretty crappy model. And why do you keep repeating the number 33%? A single individual can "cause divergence" simply by spinning up their own custom hard fork. So what?
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
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Go away you attention seeking village troll! I for one have had enough of your pathetic, persistent attempts of passing off as an authority in everything bitcoin.
Just put him on your ignore list. It works like a dream.
He has shown over and over that he either isn't interested in learning new stuff or not able to.
My conclusion: He a) wants to waste everyone's time and b) hopes for "bad behavior" and personal attacks to paint him as the victim and show how bad the "other Bitcoin people" are.

Just let him talk to himself. Engaging with him and even calling for bans etc. undermines the good spirit of this forum.
 

pekatete

Active Member
Jun 1, 2016
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@satoshis_sockpuppet - I can not waste any of my time engaging with him anymore but having quietly kept abreast of his most recent foray into this forum and saw each and every question he posed / doubt he cast upon BU being dismantled, I couldn't help myself but to re-state what I've previously asked of him. I may be wrong, but his nonsensical arguments are so draining it is un-believable he can have a normal life outside bitcoin.

What I will not do is let the nincompoop make me do something, like putting him on ignore (he should be the one who gets a bit of common sense in his posts!). And no, I'll not call for bans etc either.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
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This reddit post from /u/Noosterdam captures my own views on the subject very nicely:

Reasons I am Optimistic About Bitcoin's Future

Also, by now, most of you have probably seen John Blocke's recent article: "A (brief and incomplete) history of censorship in /r/Bitcoin", but if you haven't read it, you need to do so immediately. It's pretty devastating. What's really creepy though is reading that piece and reminding yourself of all that history -- and then visiting /r/Bitcoin and reading through the comments of that sub as it exists today. See this thread for an example. The citizens of "North Korea" who survived all the purges, or who were "born" there after the "Great Revolution" (i.e., who got into Bitcoin and discovered the sub after it had gone full retard with the censorship) actually seem to love their "Dear Leader" at this point. I have to say, I've found that aspect of this whole bizarre saga pretty disturbing and a little disheartening, notwithstanding my overall optimism regarding Bitcoin's future.