chriswilmer
Active Member
@Roger_Murdock : Could be as simple as a briefcase full of cash.
I'm having trouble putting myself in the mind of one of these large miners who's still inclined to stick with Core. What exactly is their thought process? Here are some possibilities that jumped out at me, but there are probably others I'm missing:
- Promises of a huge increase in fee income - I can't find a link now, but I seem to recall the idea that Core has tried to sell miners on the notion that they'll be able to enjoy a huge increase in fee income if they continue to artificially constrain the supply of block space. But that argument strikes me as pretty terrible (for the reasons previously outlined here and here).
It is part of @jonny1000's narrative that @Jihan's account is false:
"But it is no rumour: it is clear BScore seek to repurpose bitcoin as a settlement layer for off-chain solutions such as LN, as @Jihan has described:"
Yes exactly, Jihan is one of those large blockers spreading this divisive and malicious false rumor. I was at the HK agreement and his comments are false.
Ref your quote: So disingenuous it almost makes me choke. Either LN will lighten the load on the blockchain so much that blocks aren't full and miners will be pulling in chump change at levels of around a year ago or blocks will still be so full that LN will be fucking up all the time and people will be driven away from Bitcoin/LN. Either way, the intention of the lightning network is to eat miners' lunch. I too am somewhat dumbfounded at their acquiescence in this.
Why threaten? I think both a PoW change fork and a non-PoW change fork should be created. Let's see how it all shakes out. Potentially it could all be done pseudonoymously so no one ties their reputation to it.@Richy_T If so, all the more reason to proceed as I've outlined and threaten the miners with a PoW change of our own.
It does not have to be a lack of throughput in Core causing the transactions not to match on both chains, after the hardfork people may be frantically splitting the coins to trade them or sell the coin they do not like in exchange for coins on the other chain.
Lets consider the following scenario:
This is one of the many reasons, why in order to successfully implement an asymmetric hardfork, where the status quo has a massive advantage, you need to ensure there is no significant opposition. (e.g. 95% miner activation threshold should be considered as easily obtainable)
- Bitcoin Classic has:
- 80% of miner support
- 80% of token holder support
- 80% of user support
- Bitcoin Classic activates
- Poloniex the exchange complies with its ethical and legal obligations to protect client assets and splits the coins on deposit and allows withdraw on both sides. It also sets up a Bitcoin Core/Bitcoin Classic pair trade
- Since Bitcoin Classic has 80% support, lets say Core coins only trade at 5% of the price. Bitcoin Classic has a large mining lead
- At one point during a period of low trading liquidity, Core supporters (who own 20% of the Classic coins), dump a large amount of the coins on the exchange and buy Core coins. The price of Core coins then reaches 30% of Classic (Like ETC has already traded at)
- Miners see the huge profit opportunity on Core and start to switch over.
- The 80% of Classic supporters begin to worry, they know that if Core ever takes the mining lead, all the coins they bought on the exchange vanish from their Classic wallets. Core users of course have no such fear, their coins are reasonably safe when Classic has the lead
- This creates a snowball effect and Classic holders start panic selling.
- Despite only having 20% support, the small Core minority has managed to resoundingly defeat the Classic Chain, and all the early Classic coin investors have lost their funds.
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Yes, you have summarized his actions very well.| "Sorry I do not follow. Once Core has the lead over Classic, all the miners will switch to the Core chain and the entire Classic chain will be orphaned."
How does it follow that Classic gaining 51% ( a.k.a. "the lead" ) at fork time does not orphan Blockstream/Core chain when later Core temporarily gains the lead and orphans Classic - according to your opinion.
What is confusing about the way you discuss things is that layers and layers of assumptions and edge case scenarios are piled up, then one ore more conclusions are stated as Fact. Tendentiousness taken to the maximum level, in order to pollute the debate and occupy time.
Why? Because you hate the small blockers so much? Because you think they are evil?
To repeat again, I think you are genuine, authentic and act in good faith. I kindly ask you to re-evaluate whether you feel the same way about those who oppose Classic
But jonny boy, you talk about all hard forks as if they're exactly like classic now. Your default argument/point, is always the 95% consensus. It's not about classic, stop acting like it is. If you're not being paid to do this, I'm worried about you.Well actually, although it has been extremely difficult. I have had to have a thick skin, constantly repeat myself and be very patient. (At the same time I know I could have argued in a much better way, but I have tried my best.) However, it seems like some on this forum are very gradually starting to appreciate some of the unnecessary risks in the Classic implementation.
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No, I do not think the only solution to the above problem is 95% consensus. However, luckily, since there is very strong consensus across the community for capacity increases, we can easily obtain over 95% consensus anyway.xhiggy said:It's ridiculous that you think the only solution to this contrived example, which assumes that core holders are willing to take on huge risk, is to only have a fork with 95% consensus.
Core and many in the community have been hostile to Classic/XT. This is because these are dangerous attempts at a hardfork without consensus which will cause a chain split. They also lock in 25% miner opposition at the the time of activation, ensuring the Core side of the chain survives. These proposals do not even give more miner consensus a chance.xhiggy said:Because of Core's hostile tactics
Agreed, that is why I strongly support the Core team and the excellent progress they have made and plans they have for ON-CHAIN scaling and capacity increases.xhiggy said:Many off chain movements of bitcoin have failed catastrophically,
I cannot speak about anyone else. I highly respect Gavin, Jeff and Sergio (who might now prefer SegWit than Classic). As for Jeff I strongly support his very clever BIP100 idea. As for Gavin, I greatly admire him and think he is very intelligent and smart. I think he made an honest mistake on the CWS incident and everyone makes mistakes. Scaling Bitcoin and hardforks are a very complicated issue, with many subtle nuances and it should be seen as normal and reasonable to disagree on the best way forward.Because of what Core has publicly done to individuals who go against them.
If you're not being paid to do this, I'm worried about you.
Please try to be nice and respectful. In contrast to your comments, I respect you and believe you are being genuine and authentic. The reason I am here is because I am a Bitcoin holder and want a hardfork to increase the limit of non witness data to around 2MB. The sooner we come together, stop this fighting and start discussing the hardfork in a calm way, the faster it can happen.Got dammit you are something else.
How does it follow that Classic gaining 51% ( a.k.a. "the lead" ) at fork time does not orphan Blockstream/Core chain when later Core temporarily gains the lead and orphans Classic - according to your opinion.
Core is doing Segwit right now. There is also work on a Soft-Hardfork going on. In addition to this Core does not want to risk splitting the network into three. Therefore first Classic/XT need to be resoundingly defeated, then we can move on to a safe hardfork.For your first section of misunderstanding, you list some alternatives to your consensus. These alternatives seem fine, but Core is unwilling to do them despite pressure to do so, this is a reason to ditch them and fork away
If you want to move away from "toxic" people that is fine. Please stop incorrectly conflating the issue of the people in the team of a client and the Bitcoin protocol rules. If you want to run software written by a different group of people, run an alternative compatible implementation. Then if that gains enough market share, the development team you dislike will be insignificant. The team you dislike will then lose veto power with respect to hardforks.Remember this hard fork is more about getting away from toxic people
Its not really impressive when you consider his post rarely have any coherence. The real impressive feats are the people who are able to stick with it long enough to make any sense of his dreck.I am actually impressed by jonny1000's sheer energy to be able to argue/troll against so many people at once.
@jonny1000 If you invite your Core buddies here, you guys can have your own subforum and advocate whatever views you want.
Oh FFS, dude. Yes, you certainly have repeated that particular bit of nonsense "again and again." And it's still every bit as absurd as it was when you first trotted it out. To review, no, Classic does not "lock in 25% miner opposition at the time of activation" because:Core and many in the community have been hostile to Classic/XT. This is because these are dangerous attempts at a hardfork without consensus which will cause a chain split. They also lock in 25% miner opposition at the the time of activation, ensuring the Core side of the chain survives. These proposals do not even give more miner consensus a chance.
Yes I have repeated the "locking in" 25% miner opposition again and again.
Some of that hash power could represent miners who support Classic in principle but are simply lazy, or (more charitably) who rationally conclude that their support is unlikely to tip the scales and thus that it's not worth their time to go to the hassle of switching. ("I'll just switch to Classic during the grace period if and when it activates.") Similarly, some of the miners who haven't upgraded yet might simply be indifferent on the issue (which obviously gives them no motivation to take affirmative steps to "vote" one way or the other).
I agree Gavin is a great Bitcoin developer and an intelligent and good person. This is why a really important step to larger blocks is when Gavin withdraws his support for Classic and gets back around the negotiating table. It looks like we are close.The whole point of Classic is because it has Gavin. He has been a proven steward of the code before, Satoshi chose him for a reason. Can we get consensus around that? As a first step towards a larger block hardfork.