Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Zarathustra

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
1,439
3,797
I'm having trouble putting myself in the mind of one of these large miners who's still inclined to stick with Core. What exactly is their thought process? Here are some possibilities that jumped out at me, but there are probably others I'm missing:
  • Promises of a huge increase in fee income - I can't find a link now, but I seem to recall the idea that Core has tried to sell miners on the notion that they'll be able to enjoy a huge increase in fee income if they continue to artificially constrain the supply of block space. But that argument strikes me as pretty terrible (for the reasons previously outlined here and here).
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
@Richy_T If so, all the more reason to proceed as I've outlined and threaten the miners with a PoW change of our own.

@chriswilmer Here again, if the miners have been "completely compromised" via the proverbial briefcase full of cash, all the more reason to proceed with my plan.

@Zarathustra Maybe that's the story Core has tried to sell them, but it's hard to believe the miners would be dumb enough to actually buy it.
 

bluemoon

Active Member
Jan 15, 2016
215
966
It is part of @jonny1000's narrative that @Jihan's account is false:

"But it is no rumour: it is clear BScore seek to repurpose bitcoin as a settlement layer for off-chain solutions such as LN, as @Jihan has described:"

Yes exactly, Jihan is one of those large blockers spreading this divisive and malicious false rumor. I was at the HK agreement and his comments are false.
 

Richy_T

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2015
1,085
2,741
Ref your quote: So disingenuous it almost makes me choke. Either LN will lighten the load on the blockchain so much that blocks aren't full and miners will be pulling in chump change at levels of around a year ago or blocks will still be so full that LN will be fucking up all the time and people will be driven away from Bitcoin/LN. Either way, the intention of the lightning network is to eat miners' lunch. I too am somewhat dumbfounded at their acquiescence in this.
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@Richy_T If so, all the more reason to proceed as I've outlined and threaten the miners with a PoW change of our own.
Why threaten? I think both a PoW change fork and a non-PoW change fork should be created. Let's see how it all shakes out. Potentially it could all be done pseudonoymously so no one ties their reputation to it.

The miners need to know they need to shit or the pot will be taken from them. They owe us nothing, we owe them nothing. We just want to pay them to put transactions in blocks and they are failing to do so. If a plumber could not get to my plumbing issue and told me he was going to charge me extra because he was so busy, I would find a different plumber. That kind of shit only works in a monopoly position and I have little doubt there are plenty of people who want our money.

It might be a good time to have a discussion about tipping points.
 
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xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
It does not have to be a lack of throughput in Core causing the transactions not to match on both chains, after the hardfork people may be frantically splitting the coins to trade them or sell the coin they do not like in exchange for coins on the other chain.

Lets consider the following scenario:
  • Bitcoin Classic has:
    • 80% of miner support
    • 80% of token holder support
    • 80% of user support
  • Bitcoin Classic activates
  • Poloniex the exchange complies with its ethical and legal obligations to protect client assets and splits the coins on deposit and allows withdraw on both sides. It also sets up a Bitcoin Core/Bitcoin Classic pair trade
  • Since Bitcoin Classic has 80% support, lets say Core coins only trade at 5% of the price. Bitcoin Classic has a large mining lead
  • At one point during a period of low trading liquidity, Core supporters (who own 20% of the Classic coins), dump a large amount of the coins on the exchange and buy Core coins. The price of Core coins then reaches 30% of Classic (Like ETC has already traded at)
  • Miners see the huge profit opportunity on Core and start to switch over.
  • The 80% of Classic supporters begin to worry, they know that if Core ever takes the mining lead, all the coins they bought on the exchange vanish from their Classic wallets. Core users of course have no such fear, their coins are reasonably safe when Classic has the lead
  • This creates a snowball effect and Classic holders start panic selling.
  • Despite only having 20% support, the small Core minority has managed to resoundingly defeat the Classic Chain, and all the early Classic coin investors have lost their funds.
This is one of the many reasons, why in order to successfully implement an asymmetric hardfork, where the status quo has a massive advantage, you need to ensure there is no significant opposition. (e.g. 95% miner activation threshold should be considered as easily obtainable)
[doublepost=1469933782][/doublepost]

It's ridiculous that you think the only solution to this contrived example, which assumes that core holders are willing to take on huge risk, is to only have a fork with 95% consensus. Surely you can't actually believe that this opinion of yours is based on all the facts available. Remember bitcoin is an experiment, with new ideas coming about it every day. If core wasn't being so hostile, a well meaning hard fork could happen and we could learn from it and no one would lose their money. Because of Core's hostile tactics, we need to fear a minority of actors sabotaging the whole thing. Core wants to make bitcoin into something that suits the school of thought of those who lead blockstream TODAY. The only thing bitcoin has done well is on-chain transactions, many off chain movements of bitcoin have failed catastrophically, let's keep that trend going, it's literally the least we can do to help grow bitcoin.
[doublepost=1470098770][/doublepost]
| "Sorry I do not follow. Once Core has the lead over Classic, all the miners will switch to the Core chain and the entire Classic chain will be orphaned."

How does it follow that Classic gaining 51% ( a.k.a. "the lead" ) at fork time does not orphan Blockstream/Core chain when later Core temporarily gains the lead and orphans Classic - according to your opinion.

What is confusing about the way you discuss things is that layers and layers of assumptions and edge case scenarios are piled up, then one ore more conclusions are stated as Fact. Tendentiousness taken to the maximum level, in order to pollute the debate and occupy time.
Yes, you have summarized his actions very well.
[doublepost=1470099242][/doublepost]
Why? Because you hate the small blockers so much? Because you think they are evil?

To repeat again, I think you are genuine, authentic and act in good faith. I kindly ask you to re-evaluate whether you feel the same way about those who oppose Classic

Because of what Core has publicly done to individuals who go against them. It would make no sense for someone as credible, and with such a stable career, as Gavin to go back to work with Maxwell, and Adam Back. Got dammit you are something else.
[doublepost=1470099516,1470098683][/doublepost]
Well actually, although it has been extremely difficult. I have had to have a thick skin, constantly repeat myself and be very patient. (At the same time I know I could have argued in a much better way, but I have tried my best.) However, it seems like some on this forum are very gradually starting to appreciate some of the unnecessary risks in the Classic implementation.





[doublepost=1470014498][/doublepost]
But jonny boy, you talk about all hard forks as if they're exactly like classic now. Your default argument/point, is always the 95% consensus. It's not about classic, stop acting like it is. If you're not being paid to do this, I'm worried about you.
 
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jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
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xhiggy said:
It's ridiculous that you think the only solution to this contrived example, which assumes that core holders are willing to take on huge risk, is to only have a fork with 95% consensus.
No, I do not think the only solution to the above problem is 95% consensus. However, luckily, since there is very strong consensus across the community for capacity increases, we can easily obtain over 95% consensus anyway.

To repeat again, 95% consensus is required to ensure victory, only for a tiny narrow subset of the potential ways of increasing capacity by forking. For example Classic, an asymmetric hardfork, which gives a gigantic advantage to the Core side, due to its asymmetric nature, probably does require 95% consensus to ensure victory. If Classic does not have 95% consensus it is likely to be defeated, possibly after a period with a chain split where people lose funds.

Other methods of forking to increase capacity, which may require less consensus include:
  • A softfork to increase capacity (e.g. Segwit)
  • A Soft-Hardfork, which would be safer
  • A symmetric hardfork
However, we are lucky in that we can push ahead with 95% consensus anyway, since the community is united on the capacity increase issue. We do not need to take that many major risks to increase capacity.

xhiggy said:
Because of Core's hostile tactics
Core and many in the community have been hostile to Classic/XT. This is because these are dangerous attempts at a hardfork without consensus which will cause a chain split. They also lock in 25% miner opposition at the the time of activation, ensuring the Core side of the chain survives. These proposals do not even give more miner consensus a chance.

Yes I have repeated the "locking in" 25% miner opposition again and again. Perhaps in the light of the ETC/ETH issue, it may be easier for some of you to appreciate how inappropriate this 25% policy is. Please can you guys review the Classic idea again and please try to be open minded. Then we can finally discuss a safe sensible hardfork, while respecting each other, in a calm, patient and collaborative way.

xhiggy said:
Many off chain movements of bitcoin have failed catastrophically,
Agreed, that is why I strongly support the Core team and the excellent progress they have made and plans they have for ON-CHAIN scaling and capacity increases.

For example:
  • Speeding up signature verification times by c7x
  • Segregated witness - On Chain capacity increase
  • Schnorr signatures - On Chain capacity increase
  • Aggregated Signatures - On Chain capacity increase
  • Hardfork to around 2MB of non witness data (If there is strong consensus across the community and once the attempts to do this without consensus become insignificant) - On Chain capacity increase
  • MAST
  • Compact Blocks
Please stop spreading false and divisive rumors, like that the Core team is not doing on-chain capacity increases
 
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xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
Thanks for replying jonny boy, you are very skilled at misunderstanding things in your favor, it's a privilege to behold. Although, and I'm serious here, the way you type makes me worried you might be going a bit manic, please take care of yourself.


For your first section of misunderstanding, you list some alternatives to your consensus. These alternatives seem fine, but Core is unwilling to do them despite pressure to do so, this is a reason to ditch them and fork away, orphaning their hard work if you will. Remember this hard fork is more about getting away from toxic people,working with these people won't solve this problem, and it's a very big one that needs addressing. You recognize that they are villains, you assume they will act like it post fork for god sakes. Is your point that we should abandon Core later?

Second section, you conveniently crop my post in a way that favors you. Core has been hostile to individuals for a long time, Gavin spoke out about how these people at Core/blockstream are toxic, high-iq, people who don't get along well with others. If you have ever heard Greg talk, it's clear he has ego problems. It's about people exerting inappropriate control over bitcoin, and removing those people from power. You're also rehashing the tired 'locks in 25% of opposition' argument, which I replied to long ago but you never replied back, maybe you'll remember to now?

Third section, this one takes the cake. Core supports on chain scaling, as long as it`s 100% what they want, and 0% what they don't, they need both to act. You`re ignoring the idea of a fork as a way to remove those individuals from power, to show them that bitcoin isn`t their academic conceptual playground, but an open source project that exists in the real world. Their roadmap, blatantly focuses effort on side chain innovation at the expense of on-chain innovation (they only have so many developers after all). it`s clear that this is their goal, which is fine, but it`s fair to notice that it`s not a commitment to on-chain scaling.

In my experience, promises made by a young company about time horizons beyond 6 months or so are meaningless. What are they doing now to address these concerns? Well they have Greg-O arguing on reddit that he's right, and are making promises to miners about fees given through software that doesn't exist and will take decades to come to fruition, I can't believe how gullible the miners are, and how stupid Core thinks everyone else is. It's clear the people behind core need to go, they're brilliant, but incompetent.


It is my personal opinion, that the people behind core are actually acting in good faith, they're just huge nerds. In academia it's normal to cater to people with big brains, but who are otherwise driven by their ego only. It's kind of a requirement to make great discoveries, an unfortunate paradox. Back and Maxwell are the epitome of this, they believe themselves to be privileged and expect everyone else to think so too. When people disagree with them, they throw hissy fits as their privilege is challenged. It happens all the damn time with genius types, and it's happening here, Maxwell and Back look, to me, like spoiled children who need to get their way to be productive. I'll bet against their initiatives every time.


I want to issue a challenge to you jonny-boy-o-boy, if someone says something you agree with, but posts it as an argument against you/core, just let it go. Are you in control of your ego? I'm not sure, let's find out.
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
101
Because of what Core has publicly done to individuals who go against them.
I cannot speak about anyone else. I highly respect Gavin, Jeff and Sergio (who might now prefer SegWit than Classic). As for Jeff I strongly support his very clever BIP100 idea. As for Gavin, I greatly admire him and think he is very intelligent and smart. I think he made an honest mistake on the CWS incident and everyone makes mistakes. Scaling Bitcoin and hardforks are a very complicated issue, with many subtle nuances and it should be seen as normal and reasonable to disagree on the best way forward.

If you're not being paid to do this, I'm worried about you.
Got dammit you are something else.
Please try to be nice and respectful. In contrast to your comments, I respect you and believe you are being genuine and authentic. The reason I am here is because I am a Bitcoin holder and want a hardfork to increase the limit of non witness data to around 2MB. The sooner we come together, stop this fighting and start discussing the hardfork in a calm way, the faster it can happen.
[doublepost=1470102314][/doublepost]
How does it follow that Classic gaining 51% ( a.k.a. "the lead" ) at fork time does not orphan Blockstream/Core chain when later Core temporarily gains the lead and orphans Classic - according to your opinion.
  • Core regards blocks over 1MB as invalid
  • Classic regards Core blocks less than 1MB as valid
[doublepost=1470102986,1470102135][/doublepost]
For your first section of misunderstanding, you list some alternatives to your consensus. These alternatives seem fine, but Core is unwilling to do them despite pressure to do so, this is a reason to ditch them and fork away
Core is doing Segwit right now. There is also work on a Soft-Hardfork going on. In addition to this Core does not want to risk splitting the network into three. Therefore first Classic/XT need to be resoundingly defeated, then we can move on to a safe hardfork.


Remember this hard fork is more about getting away from toxic people
If you want to move away from "toxic" people that is fine. Please stop incorrectly conflating the issue of the people in the team of a client and the Bitcoin protocol rules. If you want to run software written by a different group of people, run an alternative compatible implementation. Then if that gains enough market share, the development team you dislike will be insignificant. The team you dislike will then lose veto power with respect to hardforks.

If you run a deliberately incompatible implementation (Classic/XT), without getting the necessary consensus, you could help split the chain and become a destructive influence on Bitcoin. This is entirely orthogonal to who the development team of any one client is.
 
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xhiggy

Active Member
Mar 29, 2016
124
277
Thanks for the reply @jonny1000 I gotta give it to you, you stick to your guns.

The whole point of Classic is because it has Gavin. He has been a proven steward of the code before, Satoshi chose him for a reason. Can we get consensus around that? As a first step towards a larger block hardfork.
 

priestc

Member
Nov 19, 2015
94
191
I am actually impressed by jonny1000's sheer energy to be able to argue/troll against so many people at once.

@jonny1000 If you invite your Core buddies here, you guys can have your own subforum and advocate whatever views you want.
Its not really impressive when you consider his post rarely have any coherence. The real impressive feats are the people who are able to stick with it long enough to make any sense of his dreck.
 

Roger_Murdock

Active Member
Dec 17, 2015
223
1,453
Core and many in the community have been hostile to Classic/XT. This is because these are dangerous attempts at a hardfork without consensus which will cause a chain split. They also lock in 25% miner opposition at the the time of activation, ensuring the Core side of the chain survives. These proposals do not even give more miner consensus a chance.

Yes I have repeated the "locking in" 25% miner opposition again and again.
Oh FFS, dude. Yes, you certainly have repeated that particular bit of nonsense "again and again." And it's still every bit as absurd as it was when you first trotted it out. To review, no, Classic does not "lock in 25% miner opposition at the time of activation" because:
  • it's entirely possible that, at the time of (initial) activation (i.e., when the 750 blocks trigger is met), more than 75% of the network's hash power is mining Classic (it's even possible that 100% of the network could be running Classic at the moment of activation);
  • to the extent that there is hash power mining something other than Classic at the time of initial activation, that hash power does not necessarily represent "opposition." As I previously explained:
    Some of that hash power could represent miners who support Classic in principle but are simply lazy, or (more charitably) who rationally conclude that their support is unlikely to tip the scales and thus that it's not worth their time to go to the hassle of switching. ("I'll just switch to Classic during the grace period if and when it activates.") Similarly, some of the miners who haven't upgraded yet might simply be indifferent on the issue (which obviously gives them no motivation to take affirmative steps to "vote" one way or the other).
  • Finally, to the extent that, at the time of initial activation, there is hash power mining something other than Classic and that does represent actual opposition, that opposition is not, in any way, "locked in." Nothing prevents that hash power from switching to Classic during the grace period or at any time thereafter (and there may be strong incentives to switch to the extent that the rump chain is not likely to be viable or heavily valued following the fork).
By the way (and I'm really not trying to be rude here, just completely honest), it was your dogged insistence on defending that particular claim that finally convinced me that you were either (a) arguing in bad faith; or (b) hopelessly wedded, as a result of one bias or another, to some bizarre views on Bitcoin such that, in either case, you weren't someone who was likely to be worth engaging. (That doesn't mean I won't occasionally make exceptions. It beats doing my actual work.) What's particularly weird to me about your decision to die on this particular hill is not just the fact that the claim in question is so completely indefensible but that it's so unnecessary. The claim isn't really a logical or factual one -- it's essentially just rhetorical, and I don't see that it has any special significance. Why not just admit that yeah, ok, you overstated your case a bit there and move on? I don't get it.

But to address your more fundamental point that a Classic-style hard fork with a 75% trigger might result in a persistent (or semi-persistent) chain split -- sure, it might. But so what? If enough people feel strongly enough about itty-bitty blocks to maintain the rump chain in some kind of meaningful capacity following a fork, then I for one won't stand in their way. Once again: "The systemic risk of forking is one that is inherent in free software crypto, it's not something that can be prevented by declaring 'contentious hard forks cannot happen'." So sure, a minority of the network might decide to stay on a 1MB4EVA chain following a hard fork to bigger blocks (as is their right). But that "risk" is no different in principle than the risk that a disgruntled minority of big-blockers might, at any time, fork to a new chain that allows for meaningful on-chain scaling. (And again, the "strong consensus" position would seem to amplify the latter risk.) There are costs associated with chain splits (which is why we should expect them to be somewhat uncommon) but there are also benefits (e.g., more people get to satisfy their preferences with respect to the protocol).
 

jonny1000

Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
380
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The whole point of Classic is because it has Gavin. He has been a proven steward of the code before, Satoshi chose him for a reason. Can we get consensus around that? As a first step towards a larger block hardfork.
I agree Gavin is a great Bitcoin developer and an intelligent and good person. This is why a really important step to larger blocks is when Gavin withdraws his support for Classic and gets back around the negotiating table. It looks like we are close.