I thought one version said the block was invalid (because it was too big) while the other version said the block was valid? What "consensus rule" did the two versions disagree on for that block then?
Last edited:
Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
- Thread starter cypherdoc
- Start date
Sorry, I got it backwards. We actually went back to the chain compatible with the older codebase to allow more time for people to upgrade.
My point was, however, that manual intervention occurred in order to choose the shorter chain and preserve consensus.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.msg1613200#msg1613200
There was no "consensus rule" that was disagreed upon explicitly. There was an unknown limitation in the pre 0.8 software that was triggered by the larger blocks. This was not an explicit limitation, but was a consequence of the default configuration of an underlying library. Such things happen in software engineering, and can never be fully accounted for ahead of time.
The intentions of the developers are one thing. The actual behavior should match, but mistakes will be made and the actual behavior will differ. The 2013 fork happened not because an explicit limit was triggered, but because a bug prevented the validation of a block well below the explicit limit. Even if there was no explicit limit the behavior would have been the same.
My point was, however, that manual intervention occurred in order to choose the shorter chain and preserve consensus.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.msg1613200#msg1613200
There was no "consensus rule" that was disagreed upon explicitly. There was an unknown limitation in the pre 0.8 software that was triggered by the larger blocks. This was not an explicit limitation, but was a consequence of the default configuration of an underlying library. Such things happen in software engineering, and can never be fully accounted for ahead of time.
The intentions of the developers are one thing. The actual behavior should match, but mistakes will be made and the actual behavior will differ. The 2013 fork happened not because an explicit limit was triggered, but because a bug prevented the validation of a block well below the explicit limit. Even if there was no explicit limit the behavior would have been the same.
It wasn't nearly that deterministic.
If any version of the reference client ran out of BDB locks for any reason while trying to validate a block, it would return a false result for block validity.
Whether or not any particular node would run of out locks on a particular block was highly dependent on the exact database state state of that node - how long it had been online, how many orphaned chains it had observered (which were stored in the database), etc.
It was entirely possible for two pre-0.8 nodes running identical versions of the reference client on identical OS images and on identical hardware to have divergent behavior in terms of validating a block if they had a different set of network peers and/or uptime.
You could say that the conditions under which a 0.7 node would reject a block was deterministic, but on that other hand that determinism was based on state unique to every node so effectively block validity criteria were for all practical purposes non-deterministic prior to 0.8.
This is interesting because it suggests a connection between having a centralized "reference" implementation and ending up with the blocksize in the consensus layer.
[doublepost=1445228959,1445228205][/doublepost]@solex
For completeness of the analysis, we should probably note that there isn't always a clean line or principled distinction between "Care" and "Don't care" transactions. As blockspace becomes tighter, in fact, I'd expect the various gradiations along the spectrum between C and D to come to the fore. Hence the idea of a fee market. However, this doesn't take away much from the point that an artificially created fee market is missing the forest for the trees, or in Nick Szabo's words, creating and playing a small game while oblivious to the larger game.
Just to add a few actual points
another critique that I've always found insightful is this one from @2112 at btctalk:gavin andresen https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0050.mediawiki#root-cause said:
2112 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152208.0 said:
OK thanks @sickpig, @Justus Ranvier, @yrral86 and @theZerg; I think I'm starting to understand.
Would it be correct to say that V0.7 didn't strictly say that the block was invalid, but rather it triggered some branch of the code (that was expected never to trigger) that defaulted to labelling the block as invalid simply because it knew it didn't know the correct answer (b/c it ran out of BDB locks)? In other words, the program wanted to say "something went wrong and I don't know if this block is valid or invalid"?
Would it be correct to say that V0.7 didn't strictly say that the block was invalid, but rather it triggered some branch of the code (that was expected never to trigger) that defaulted to labelling the block as invalid simply because it knew it didn't know the correct answer (b/c it ran out of BDB locks)? In other words, the program wanted to say "something went wrong and I don't know if this block is valid or invalid"?
Last edited:
Sorry, I started writing a post tried to delete it when I read deeper but it got sent anyway. While it would be wonderful to imagine that BU deployed in both version would have avoided the 2013 issue, really the only reason it would have is because we would have tested very large blocks from the get-go and therefore found the bug. The issue AFAICT without analyzing the code and patch directly is that the code was written "poorly" -- it basically said "if anything goes wrong (with this portion of the code) then reject the block". This allowed a program error to affect consensus.
I think "we" have evolved to a philosophy more like "Determine block validity following these clearly defined rules. if anything goes wrong with handling a valid block then abort the program." That is, the "consensus" rules are more important than any particular program instance. Ofc this is also dangerous. In a single-source environment a block that triggers a bug could in theory at least cause most of the bitcoin nodes to go down. But presumably the bad block would not be relayed, so an attacker would probably have to deliberately craft both a bad block and an aggressive propagation node to actually accomplish this.
I think "we" have evolved to a philosophy more like "Determine block validity following these clearly defined rules. if anything goes wrong with handling a valid block then abort the program." That is, the "consensus" rules are more important than any particular program instance. Ofc this is also dangerous. In a single-source environment a block that triggers a bug could in theory at least cause most of the bitcoin nodes to go down. But presumably the bad block would not be relayed, so an attacker would probably have to deliberately craft both a bad block and an aggressive propagation node to actually accomplish this.
If software had metacognition that might be a valid approach.
You can teach the code to recognize that particular failure mode and respond appropriately (although what the appropriate response to "I can't determine if this block is valid or not" isn't clear), but there's always a non-zero possibility of some new failure mode which will not be covered by any existing error handling path.
"If software had metacognition that might be a valid approach."
I think that with multiple protocol implementations, it sort of can have metacognition
Bitcoin Unlimited's view of consensus is that a block is valid if all transactions in that block are valid and not already spent (and the PoW meets the difficulty target). The output of any software test on a block must either be:
1. Valid
2. Invalid
3. I don't know
The BDB fork was a result of one version saying "Valid" and the other one saying (or should have been saying) "I don't know." Although V0.7 was correct to not relay that block, it should not have ruled that block as invalid. Instead, when it realized that consensus was following the chain with the questionable block, then it should have tracked consensus in the same fashion as @theZerg is proposing for dealing with excessive blocks.
I should point out that @Mengerian has been advocating this idea of "robustness to tracking consensus" and might have comments to make here.
Anyways, I'm really starting to think that the "multiple implementations won't work because you can't guarantee bug-for-bug compatibility" is just more FUD from Core Dev.
I think that with multiple protocol implementations, it sort of can have metacognition
Bitcoin Unlimited's view of consensus is that a block is valid if all transactions in that block are valid and not already spent (and the PoW meets the difficulty target). The output of any software test on a block must either be:
1. Valid
2. Invalid
3. I don't know
The BDB fork was a result of one version saying "Valid" and the other one saying (or should have been saying) "I don't know." Although V0.7 was correct to not relay that block, it should not have ruled that block as invalid. Instead, when it realized that consensus was following the chain with the questionable block, then it should have tracked consensus in the same fashion as @theZerg is proposing for dealing with excessive blocks.
I should point out that @Mengerian has been advocating this idea of "robustness to tracking consensus" and might have comments to make here.
Anyways, I'm really starting to think that the "multiple implementations won't work because you can't guarantee bug-for-bug compatibility" is just more FUD from Core Dev.
@rocks
but what do you mean that a full node would continue to DL a big block larger than it accepts "for it's own use"? why would they do this? won't it be able to tell that it's too large from the header and thus refuse to DL the rest of the block? in that sense it wouldn't be draining network bandwidth.
furthermore, why would they allow themselves to be leaves of the network when what they should want is to be active participants, ie, full functioning nodes? they don't help themselves by not being able to transact on the main longer chain that accepts bigger blocks. they should simply be convinced to up their settings to accept bigger blocks (note that i am not yet convinced of the adding blocks to a full node's chain by the "excessive block" method currently being proposed).
i think you're right that we are introducing a new question here; should we allow users/full nodes to set their definition of a valid blocksize. i agree that the significance of this is not fully understood.
but what do you mean that a full node would continue to DL a big block larger than it accepts "for it's own use"? why would they do this? won't it be able to tell that it's too large from the header and thus refuse to DL the rest of the block? in that sense it wouldn't be draining network bandwidth.
furthermore, why would they allow themselves to be leaves of the network when what they should want is to be active participants, ie, full functioning nodes? they don't help themselves by not being able to transact on the main longer chain that accepts bigger blocks. they should simply be convinced to up their settings to accept bigger blocks (note that i am not yet convinced of the adding blocks to a full node's chain by the "excessive block" method currently being proposed).
My suggestion would be to have a separate code path for handling the "invalid" state that produces a fraud proof.
Then you end up with a flow that looks like:
- Try to prove the block is valid.
- If the previous step fails, try to prove the block is invalid.
- If the previous step fails, it's not possible to determine the best chain.
@Peter R nice work Peter.
Just read this again and this stood out.
"Low fees are desirable"
While I agree with the statement is still subjective. It should say: free market fees, free of central controle or manipulation or something. (Fee market optimized fees)
We have a potential 7 billion people who would like to exchange value with no fees and miners who want as much as they can charge for a fee.
We also have a very critical minority in the Core developers who are saying they want a free market fee system with higher fees as a result of manipulating the Bitcoin code (Block Size).
I understand Bitcoin is optimized to converge on the minimal fee to provided the necessary security to protect the value exchanged on the network. Should transaction volume not be artificially limited. I also think there may be space for free transaction with old coins if miners and nodes want to encourage macro economic manipulation much like the FED tries to maintain money velocity with interest rates.
Last edited:
This is called "tri-state" in CS lingo BTW
Yes, its FUD. What will happen is the bad implementations will fork or crash out of the network and either be fixed or abandoned. The result will be a much stronger and robust network with clients written with the sort of meta-cognition you are talking about -- they are essentially aware that they may not be right. This type of programming is pretty common in scaleable or high availablity applications today...
However, there is a nasty "transitional" period where the unexpected failure of a particular implementation has large ramifications in the network because it still is a large pct of the network.
@AdrianX I like the explicit idea that low fees are important. But you are correct we don't want some kind of CB subsidizing fees in the future. How about something like "Free market fee dynamics should settle on low fees"
- Aug 29, 2015
- 536
- 2,597
@Peter R Regarding "robustness to tracking consensus": The way I look at it is to consider the individual incentives of participants and think about how that will play out globally. The primary function of running a full node is to track the network consensus. Think of any business transacting in Bitcoin, or even individuals. They will want to know, with a high degree of confidence, which transactions are considered valid or invalid by the rest of the network. So yes, I think it makes sense for the software to try to detect cases where there is some uncertainty in the network consensus.
In addition to your 3 cases (valid/invalid/don't know), another important situation is the case where two parallel proof-of-work chains are being built by the miners, ie, a blockchain fork. This is definitely a place where the software should employ "Meta-cognition", at a minimum alerting the user. (like the term meta-cognition btw ) It should do this even if the two chains are different lengths or the software considers one of them invalid.
The fact that these individual incentives line up to make Bitcoin a robust decentralized consensus network is cool, and part of why Bitcoin is so interesting. But we should keep in mind that the primary "purpose" of a full node is to serve the individual interests of the node operator.
In addition to your 3 cases (valid/invalid/don't know), another important situation is the case where two parallel proof-of-work chains are being built by the miners, ie, a blockchain fork. This is definitely a place where the software should employ "Meta-cognition", at a minimum alerting the user. (like the term meta-cognition btw
) It should do this even if the two chains are different lengths or the software considers one of them invalid.The fact that these individual incentives line up to make Bitcoin a robust decentralized consensus network is cool, and part of why Bitcoin is so interesting. But we should keep in mind that the primary "purpose" of a full node is to serve the individual interests of the node operator.
Last edited:
It seems we're in agreement that the output of a validator's check on a given block can either be:
1. Valid
2. Invalid
3. Don't know
However, it seems there's disagreement about the correct course of action in the case of "don't know." I don't think we need agreement here, however. Like @Mengerian said, the "primary 'purpose' of a full node is to serve the individual interests of the node operator." If it is true that
1. Valid
2. Invalid
3. Don't know
However, it seems there's disagreement about the correct course of action in the case of "don't know." I don't think we need agreement here, however. Like @Mengerian said, the "primary 'purpose' of a full node is to serve the individual interests of the node operator." If it is true that
then dealing with the "don't know" case should really be left up to the node operator. I personally would want my node to fork back to the longest PoW chain (and hobble along in some error mode if necessary) even if it meant being uncertain about the validity of a given block.
Gavin gave an interesting talk at DevCore regarding validation costs [pdf, reddit].
Here is a slide particularly relevant to our discussion regarding what is and isn't strictly part of the consensus layer:
Like the block size limit, the number bytes to hash and the number of sigops should not strictly be viewed as part of the consensus layer, but rather part of the transport/validation layer. That is, these rules serve a different purpose than the consensus rules against double spending or creating coins out of thin air.
Here is a slide particularly relevant to our discussion regarding what is and isn't strictly part of the consensus layer:
Like the block size limit, the number bytes to hash and the number of sigops should not strictly be viewed as part of the consensus layer, but rather part of the transport/validation layer. That is, these rules serve a different purpose than the consensus rules against double spending or creating coins out of thin air.
Last edited:
Latest threads
-
-
-
Radix (XRD): Understanding the Blockchain Platform
- cryptomode_2024
- 0 replies
-
NFTs Explained: How They Work, Marketplaces, Use Cases And More
- cryptomode_2024
- 0 replies
-
Members online
No members online now.