Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

jbreher

Active Member
Dec 31, 2015
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The Attacker may be uncovered or disclose himself and could be sued. The White Hat attackers are known and could be sued (so far their actions are identical to those of the Attacker). The Etherium Foundation could conceivably be sued.
Sorry - I mean smart contracts in general. If a smart contract is entered into, and assuming it has no mysterious bugs, it could conceivably be something where the counterparty (DAO, whatever) is the contract itself. Picture Hearn's canonical self-driving, self-dispatching, self-service-acquiring taxicab as a model. If the synthetic entity is itself the counterparty, then how do courts obtain jurisdiction? Code cannot be coerced to disgorge some 'penalty' under threat of imprisonment. How would such a verdict be enforced?
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Traditional law will always have technical jurisdiction over smart contracts. However, prosecution will be extremely difficult between participants living in different countries, who may be anonymous or at least hard to track down.
It is even worse. One or more of the parties to a smart contract may not even be carbon-based life forms. How is a court going to enforce a verdict against a piece of massively-replicated code?
 

Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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"True anonymity".

Many people have been killed anonymously, but that doesn't put the 'contractor' above the law.
True anonymity is not allowed within the legal business environment, whether you are a Bitcoin exchange, a lightning/thunder hub or a seller of items. You can try to download music anonymously, but that doesn't put you above the law. They will hunt you.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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"Smart contract" is just a name someone gave to these things. It doesn't mean they're actually contracts in the meeting-of-the-minds sense. It's probably more elucidating to call them "transaction function machines" or "conditional transactions" or something.

TheDAO was a function machine designed to work a certain way, like a one of those Lego Technics cars or Tinker Toy Ferris wheels.



It didn't match its design spec, and its investors got hammered. That seems completely reasonable to me; if you're investing in the success of a design project, like the SpaceX rocket, whether you lose your money because the rocket spec isn't useful or you lose your money because the actual rocket wasn't designed according to spec and it crashes and burns, you still lost fair and square.

You can blame gravity (the "attacker") if you want, but in the case of TheDAO they were just the person to do what someone else would eventually have done. The system was fundamentally unsound and going to break.

Re: Jameson Lopp's tweet that <1000 people in the world are able to evaluate whether such "rockets are built to spec," that is if anything just an argument that few people had any business investing in TheDAO or perhaps any other Ethereum-based project going forward.

Of course that's not something Eth holders are going to want to accept, because it would mean Ethereum is largely a dead end or at least has major problems to resolve before it can have even a chance of success (perhaps moving to a new language like /u/ydtm suggests). At the very least it will require a multi-year track record without such a calamity, which precludes a market cap anywhere near Bitcoin's any time soon.

I today realized a huge reason why reversing the "attack" has been argued for so vehemently by so many people despite it being a total reversal of all of what Ethereum supposedly stood for, is that so many people invested ALL their Eth into this function machine called TheDAO because they were assured it was safe. So their entire stake in the project, which is likely life-changing for many since it went up 20x from the ICO, is at risk. Of course they are willing to compromise on the entire principle of the system. They first and foremost want their money back, and even if Ethereum would be much more likely to succeed without the intervention they no longer have a seat on that moonship.

In other words, they have no incentive to argue for something that would enable long-term success if it means they get no stake in it. Yet another too-big-to-fail dynamic, yet another bitter fruit of the ICO/premine and its centralization of stake, yet another reason not to move to PoS, yet another step deeper into the moral hazard quicksand.

By the way, if the ICO/premine was to "fund development" and TheDAO is being considered growing pains, why aren't the premine-enriched founders partly reimbursing TheDAO investors out of pocket? If you remove the rising-tide-lifts-all-boats context of Eth having - at today's price - gone up 13x since ICO and instead just look at the ratio of benefit accruing to Ethereum's founders and friends (think Stephan Tual) and its investors, the investors are seeming to get massively shortchanged at every juncture.

These guys created and security-reviewed TheDAO. They encouraged investment in it. They told everyone it was a no-brainer as they could always withdraw their funds later. They assured everyone after the warning of an exploit that "no funds were at risk."

Had TheDAO succeeded, these guys benefit; had TheDAO failed these guys benefit from the longer tie-up of funds in unsellable Eth to the tune of 1/3 of all outstanding coins (what a dream come true for an insider who want to cash out before everyone else!); now that TheDAO is imploding these guys are making sure their would-be losses are erased from the record, in a way that others' losses simply cannot be (it would be impossible to bail out every contract gone awry even if that were a desirable goal).
 
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Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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Bitcoin back to its old tricks. Shouldn't fall much further or the thesis for a mega bubble later this year is debunked. If it does hold in the 450-600 range then bitcoin has found a new base to launch off later this year.

I suck at trading. Back to virtually what I started with now. :/
Makes things interesting for the halvening. I should have hedged like my understanding of the situation told me. OTOH, the whole DAO thing was a surprise.
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I like to think we had a similar selloff in August 2012, if that's not smoking the hopium too much!
Very true. Nice to have some volatility back. Bitcoin should not be boring at this stage and TBH, the block size limit is becoming a bit yawnsome.
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If the synthetic entity is itself the counterparty, then how do courts obtain jurisdiction? Code cannot be coerced to disgorge some 'penalty' under threat of imprisonment. How would such a verdict be enforced?
You are broadly correct but the unfortunate truth is that is is currently (and for the foreseeable future) a very small domain that is subject to such control. Almost everything else protrudes somewhat into the domain of the real world where the government equivalent of the $5 wrench can be brought to bear.
 
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awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
1,387
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Lots of people seem to think that miners are the ones with all the power and are driving the 1MB blockade. I happen to think not. Anyone following this multi year debate can see that miners were initially onboard with 8MB scaling; that is until Blockstream kore devs started attacking them and the large blockists with FUD and personal attacks. Thus it is kore dev leading everyone around by the nose, imo, specifically because of their financial confliction.

There is one bit from Jihan that stood out a bit for me, but maybe I am reading way too much into it:

[...]
Don't feel too safe when you are acting so manipulative. After you got the benefit of killing competition in the past months, but when you need to deliver your promise, you call your promise as being blackmailed. When about signing the HK agreement, miners had prepared very well in minds what if you guys would not deliver the promise in July, which is more and more likely to happen. That's fine, we have the patience. However, are you guys prepared to bear the potential consequence of breaching the HK agreement?
Emphasis mine.

It sounds to me a bit like it was Core's request at the HK meetings to be free from competition for at least a while to finish up their way 'forward' for Bitcoin. And it sounds like the miners might have struck a deal there to help with this.

Now, it might be a viable business tactic in many circles to form coalitions/cartels to squash the competition or to get 'a unified standard' or whatever.

But if there is such a goal and thought behind the HK 'consensus', it surely alienated a huge fraction of the community and caused a huge amount of friction, bad blood and loss off efficiency. The majority of the polls is pro larger blocks, after all ...

You simply do not do that kind of tactics in the open source world when the protocol's survivability depends on a strong, motivated community behind it and when you lose enthusiasm, mind share and developer power by creating lots of friction, something what looks like an effective divide-and-conquer, anger, hate and so forth. And putting the absolutely worst persons from Core on the pedestal of being 'the effective Bitcoin leaders'.

The palm stacking consensus procedure was very cheap PR and an affront to everyone with half a brain in this space.

It appears if Antpool, F2Pool got a faint hint of being played after that consensus meeting, given macbook-air's distancing from the consensus and Jihan's recent, more open minded assessment on the situation.

But maybe I am just wrong with this tangent - @Jihan, we're of course glad if you can enlighten us, also on whether I am reading too much into what you wrote.
 

79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
1,031
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Sorry - I mean smart contracts in general. If a smart contract is entered into, and assuming it has no mysterious bugs, it could conceivably be something where the counterparty (DAO, whatever) is the contract itself. Picture Hearn's canonical self-driving, self-dispatching, self-service-acquiring taxicab as a model. If the synthetic entity is itself the counterparty, then how do courts obtain jurisdiction? Code cannot be coerced to disgorge some 'penalty' under threat of imprisonment. How would such a verdict be enforced?
It is even worse. One or more of the parties to a smart contract may not even be carbon-based life forms. How is a court going to enforce a verdict against a piece of massively-replicated code?
1. "assuming it has no mysterious bugs". As everyone has concluded, it will take a long time before any such assumption can be made.

2. Someone owns these self-dispatching cabs, correct? Someone makes money by their operation? Someone assumes the costs of operating them? Well then, that person/corporation/autonomous entity with control of funds (and a plug to the electrical grid) is liable for a breach of contract or perceived incorrect performance of a 'conditional transaction', as ZB usefully called it.
 
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Zarathustra

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Aug 28, 2015
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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No, @jbreher is invoking Mike Hearns's original autonomous agent theory of completely self sustaining and self reliant AI machines that service and repair themselves out of self interest and a drive to profit which bitcoin had supposedly kicked off by providing a payment method between these quintessential IOT machines. Not sure I've ever bought this idea as it made me wonder who ever pays for these things to get built in the first place but once you get your mind going down this path it doesn't take much more imagination to remember Miles Dyson who would probably be willing to kick things off for free to give birth to the Skynet network leading to the takeover of the world. But then, maybe smart contracting makes sense in that Era where you live at the tip of a gun? :)


1. "assuming it has no mysterious bugs". As everyone has concluded, it will take a long time before any such assumption can be made.

2. Someone owns these self-dispatching cabs, correct? Someone makes money by their operation? Someone assumes the costs of operating them? Well then, that person/corporation/autonomous entity with control of funds (and a plug to the electrical grid) is liable for a breach of contract or perceived incorrect performance of a 'conditional transaction', as ZB usefully called it.
 

cliff

Active Member
Dec 15, 2015
345
854
@jbreher - You have some interesting thoughts:

RE: " If the synthetic entity is itself the counterparty, then how do courts obtain jurisdiction" & "How is a court going to enforce a verdict against a piece of massively-replicated code?"

These are really complicated questions to answer here b/c of time and space constraints. Let me just throw a few really broad thoughts at you for now - we can go deeper if necessary.
  • Generally, courts can and will have jurisdiction over synthetic counterparties and massively replicated code if their respective legislative bodies give them that jurisdiction. If no law exists, then individual courts will have to decide on a case by case basis if they have jurisdiction over parties to a matter.
More fundamentally:
  • If a person can contract w/ some thing, that thing is necessarily subject to human law because contracts are human constructs.
    • Consider this: how can anyone enter into a contract w/ a synthetic - and i presume autonomous counterparty - for whom you have no recourse if said counterparty is in breach or fails? What's the point of a contract in that case?
    • Contracts in the legal sense are made of 3 things: an offer, acceptance, and consideration (money, a promise, etc.). Making offers and accepting them require cognition - courts have said that contracting generally represents a "meeting of the minds" so to speak.
      • Sometimes, the lack of a meeting of the minds can be used as an affirmative defense to breach of contract claims (i.e., if there is no meeting of the minds, there is no contract).
    • Courts will enforce the terms of a contract, presumably smart contract would be written so the bot can't default and so forth.
    • Smart Contracts might =! legal contracts. More on that next set of bullets...
  • A synthetic entity or code as a counterparty to a contract (smart or dumb) may not be possible in the traditional legal sense
    • Autonomous code, self-replicating bots, etc. may need to be treated as a force of nature, natural resource, wildlife
      • Regulate use, access, encounters, ancillary industry (hardware, insurance, programmers and professional, training/certification/education)
      • Regulate design, build, destruction (focus on consumer protection)
      • Key issue might be whether society grants the code or entity rights.
    • Laws can be drafted and enforced to focus on protecting citizens by requiring/incentivizing insurance, collateral, other protective measures etc. for the human counterparty
  • I started this post last night, its interesting to see how others have handled it. I saw this article this morning and thought I'd post it here: http://www.newsweek.com/robots-tax-europe-electronic-persons-ai-473542
 
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VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
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This is from a very popular dutch newspaper, the type of paper that much of the older generation in the Netherlands still reads, my dad linked this to me actually. It seems like this dutch article was partially based on the financial times article that I have linked here as well.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/economie/amerikaanse-toezichthouders-bezorgd-over-bitcoin~a4325551/
https://next.ft.com/content/e0880cf6-3800-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7

I will translate parts of the text from the dutch newspaper:
"It seems like certain flaws can only come to light once the system is operating on scale"
"the authority is warning people for the first time about this cryptocurrency"
"because more people have started using it and the system has reached its limit"
"the system is limited to seven transactions per second and there are presently so many users that people are being placed on a waiting list"

Quoting the financial times article:
"The FSOC, which is also responsible for overseeing banks and insurers deemed as potential systemic threats, noted that bitcoin had experienced “dramatic” increases in trade delays and some transaction failures in recent months."
"These occurred because “the speed with which new bitcoin transactions are submitted has exceeded the speed with which they can be added to the blockchain."

This is what outsiders see when looking in, a technology that seems to be unable to scale therefore making it unsuitable as a global currency. This glaring issue still exists in Bitcoin and might explain why it is not taking off the way it should. The mainstream media has never had any good criticisms of Bitcoin, it seems like we have given them fuel for their fire. "Transaction failures" is something we should have never allowed to happen, Bitcoin was the most reliable form of value transfer in world, not anymore I guess.
 

sickpig

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
926
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Speaking of legal matters, I settled the HashFast case a couple of weeks ago . It is over and behind me once and for all.
"settle"? means no process?

(feel free to ignore me of course)
 

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
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I do not think it is that unlikely that when new users experience the transaction delays and in some case even transaction failures for themselves. That they decide to sell, concluding that Bitcoin is not a viable technology. Waiting days for a transaction to confirm only to have it drop out certainly would not inspire confidence to a new user who does not understand the nuances of Bitcoin. This might in part help to explain the price drop and why the network is no longer congested.

I think the theory that we will never see the "fee market" that Core has envisioned has much merit. Whenever the network becomes congested, people leave. Leading to a situation where transaction demand never significantly exceeds the blocksize limit and never will as long this limit stays in place. An equilibrium is formed where Bitcoin can only support a certain number of users and new users are turned away either towards the alternative cryptocurrencies or even worse they return back to fiat solutions.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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"settle"? means no process?

(feel free to ignore me of course)
there was no court case, just a settlement, where no liability/wrongdoing was admitted by either side.
 
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Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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Speaking of legal matters, I settled the HashFast case a couple of weeks ago . It is over and behind me once and for all.
Good to hear, Cyphie! Court cases suck the energy out of people. (Maybe the case should be settled by a "smart" Ethereum contract, lol!)
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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Trezor pushing the limits once again. note SW preparation:

https://medium.com/@satoshilabs/trezor-firmware-1-3-6-20a7df6e692#.xbiqquyl8
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I do not think it is that unlikely that when new users experience the transaction delays and in some case even transaction failures for themselves. That they decide to sell, concluding that Bitcoin is not a viable technology. Waiting days for a transaction to confirm only to have it drop out certainly would not inspire confidence to a new user who does not understand the nuances of Bitcoin. This might in part help to explain the price drop and why the network is no longer congested.

I think the theory that we will never see the "fee market" that Core has envisioned has much merit. Whenever the network becomes congested, people leave. Leading to a situation where transaction demand never significantly exceeds the blocksize limit and never will as long this limit stays in place. An equilibrium is formed where Bitcoin can only support a certain number of users and new users are turned away either towards the alternative cryptocurrencies or even worse they return back to fiat solutions.
i think this is true. which is why we have to continue to work hard to break thru. i do think it's possible and even likely with more time and esp the upcoming halvening. the economic incentives of sound money appreciation should be enough to wash away kore dev. this is indeed the question and fulfills the uncertainty requirement of all bull markets that make most hesitate. that's ok; only a few of us can make it to the finish line.

i still can't understand how you can view Ethereum as sound money. as a platform and concept, it hasn't even left the basement yet. b/c there are so many unknowns and contradictions, esp the premine with a planned POS power grab, recommending that your clients invest in it seems unwise. if i did that, i would certainly be disclaiming up down left right that Ethereum is very much a speculative play that hasn't proven itself and may never do so. i understand that it could be your ticket to glory and riches but still.
[doublepost=1466694551,1466693756][/doublepost]@Peter R

given what i think was your huge success in getting kore dev to implement XThins 0.9 via your excellent 5 part series, why not publish a similar series regarding the blocksize limit? or maybe something centered on BU? i think it was extremely effective and leveraged your abilities to communicate and illustrate.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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