Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[cypherdoc]

oh yeah, baby:

 

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

About time. Stability has been maxing out:

 

[cypherdoc]

GMO!->GMI!

 

[cypherdoc]

@Peter R

are you no longer a Managing Editor?:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3odoas/we_have_a_chat_with_chistopher_wilmer_and_richard/

 

[solex]

The red line starts to diverge from the green about 1971. at the transition to a new economic model where free money allegedly works.
Also, the small dip in 2007 had all the financial fallout from the Credit Crisis, yet the normal trend resumes with a vengeance. There must be a Chinese proverb about the fate of what is unsustainable...

 

[rocks]

@solex From the same article, the FED's newest debt calculation just "found" another $2.7T in debt, taking the debt to GDP ratio from 330% to 350%.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-11/fed-revises-definition-total-credit-unexpectedly-discovers-another-27-trillion-debt

Someone should explain to these guys the concept of unfunded liabilities, it makes the problem just a tad worse... (by the way, even the official stats now have the US at a higher debt ratio than in 1929, at this point the hole they're digging is almost to china)

 

[solex]

@rocks Agreed, and interesting that part of the China stock bubble story is the naive usage of margin brokerage accounts by the public, the same as in the late 1920s US.

 

[awemany]

The red line starts to diverge from the green about 1971. at the transition to a new economic model where free money allegedly works.
Also, the small dip in 2007 had all the financial fallout from the Credit Crisis, yet the normal trend resumes with a vengeance. There must be a Chinese proverb about the fate of what is unsustainable...

Is that really only since '71? This rather looks like the exponential increase squeezing the left side of the graph so much that similar-sized effects (as in similar ratio) at smaller scale are simply not visible.

How does a log plot or a plot of the ratio of the two variables look like?

I've just found out (via coindesk) another project which aim to improve bitcoin scalability in a similar way to LN (offchain), and I thought it was worth sharing.

it's called Duplex Micropayment Channels (DMC), no source code available till now, but a published white paper us available here:

http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf

DMC as LN requires a fix for tx malleability. Christian Decker, one of the DMC proponents, proposed a draft BIP to solve tx mutability problem.

Didn't read the article yet, but the intro sticks out as a repetition of a stupid and wrong mantra that seems to be chic now in Bitcoin space:

Bitcoin does not scale, because its synchronization mecha-
nism, the blockchain, limits the maximum rate of transactions the net-
work can process.

No, folks, that's a non-sequitur. Bitcoin does scale, with O(n) (n: transaction rate). Being able to scale does not mean that there are no eventual physical and/or economical limits.

 

[yrral86]

Bitcoin actually scales with O (mn), where n is transactions and m is UTXO size, at least when it comes to memory bandwidth/cpu. Network wise it scales as O (nv) where v is the node count.

Bitcoin should scale okay, but O (n) is disingenuous.

 

[sickpig]

@yrral86 maybe @awemany was referring to "node" (1) complexity rather than network complexity.

(1) http://gavinandresen.ninja/are-bigger-blocks-dangerous

The second thing wrong with that argument is that while the entire network might, indeed, perform O(n2) validation work, each of the n individuals would only perform O(n) work– and that is the important metric, because each individual doesn’t care how much work the rest of the network is doing to validate transactions, they just care about how much work their computer must do.

 

[Zarathustra]

@solex From the same article, the FED's newest debt calculation just "found" another $2.7T in debt, taking the debt to GDP ratio from 330% to 350%.

Someone should explain to these guys the concept of unfunded liabilities, it makes the problem just a tad worse... (by the way, even the official stats now have the US at a higher debt ratio than in 1929, at this point the hole they're digging is almost to china)

What do you mean with 'unfunded'? Since money = debt = credit; where do I get unfunded credit?

 

[yrral86]

@yrral86 maybe @awemany was referring to "node" (1) complexity rather than network complexity.

(1) http://gavinandresen.ninja/are-bigger-blocks-dangerous

I am talking individual nodes. O (mn) still holds for UTXO growth. The bandwidth case also holds under the assumption that all nodes contribute equally to broadcasting transactions.

 

[cypherdoc]

"The use of digital currencies has increased substantially in the last 12 months, with little evidence thus far that this form of money transfer has been used for terrorist financing or money laundering."

- Commonwealth Central Bank Governors Meeting report​

 

[cypherdoc]

you gotta wonder if troll brg444 is a paid shill:

 

[Bagatell]

Having had another post deleted on TOP yesterday I'm wondering if brg444 et al aren't staff. How does a guest there get to delete members posts?

 

[Inca]

Brg444, gibbsplatter, drak, 1110101010 etc are an irrelevence really. They just sound utterly preposterous on /r/bitcoin these days.

Bitcoin will scale because miners want income. It may not be able to scale up 1000x from here but it doesn't have to for bitcoin to become a massive success with numerous additional use cases in the future.

The sooner the project is wrestled from Core fiddlers and we get some decent developer leadership rather than this pathetic programming-by-committee situation we are in now, the better.

 

[rocks]

Bitcoin will scale because miners want income.

This ^^^

If there is a financial incentive, the free market always finds a solution. People said ASICs would never happen because of the investment required, but then 20 companies ended up developing working chips. Miners will scale bitcoin as the fees reading for the taking make it worthwhile.

 

[Fatman3002]

@rocks

The way the free market works is that a business/platform finds a solution or it dies. Let's not kid ourselves, this boat may yet sink if nothing is done.

 

[awemany]

I am talking individual nodes. O (mn) still holds for UTXO growth. The bandwidth case also holds under the assumption that all nodes contribute equally to broadcasting transactions.

Why is node cost (other than storage, you were talking about bandwidth/cpu further above) in O(m) for m UTXOs? I'd imagine I can always arrange them into a tree?

Also, a UTXO coalescing scheme could get you to O(n log n) bandwidth cost and constant storage (except blockheaders), as far as I can see.

 

[rocks]

What do you mean with 'unfunded'? Since money = debt = credit; where do I get unfunded credit?

If you have promised people $50T worth of SS payments and $30T worth of medicare services, but only have $10T saved to pay for them and future taxes do not cover them, then you have $70T in unfunded liabilities.

Normal companies have to put this on their books as debt, the Federal government does not.

Note the numbers above are made up. This site has the totals. Current unfunded liabilities are $98T at $828K per taxpayer. Either every tax payer needs to pay $828K or these promises have to be cut.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/