Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

jl777

Active Member
Feb 26, 2016
279
345
on the bitcoin scaling issue...

i just got a 6 second time from launch to ready to process realtime blocks. I still need to do that part, but i dont expect it will take more than 30 seconds to launch iguana.

Also, I solved the so called impossible problem of the ever growing utxo dataset. with iguana it is constant size, basically the number of spends in the latest 2000 blocks. All the rest are in the permanent readonly store that current fits the entire (without sigs) chain in 16GB. the sigs that are so bulky are already segregated into a separate directory, so they can be purged (for non relay nodes) as soon as they are verified. the verification will happen in the background so it will just have higher CPU usage until it is all verified. The user can determine to use a checkpoint, or wait for all sigs to be validated

Looking for testers now to verify cross platform stability and performance. iguana's parallel datasets are designed to allow future CPU with more cores (and GPU) to continue to reduce the average time per blockchain operation.

actually the iguana API is at the time machine blockexplorer level, meaning that for any type of address as of any block, it will be able to calculate the balance.

Not sure what the scaling problems are that are left...
Just need larger blocksize and iguana will be able to sync at whatever bandwidth speed you have without even adding load to the relay nodes. The dataset will be 75% smaller and it has a txindex=1 level dataset as of any height for any address, including multisig.

To verify the dataset we are needing to make custom mods to bitcoind to generate all balances as of a specific height, but it appears it will take a bit more time to extract it from the local DB than iguana takes to do initial sync:

block 196940/403887, 4.52% done, ETA = 352804.30secs, mem = 8.256 Gig
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
@VeritasSapere

i don't see any evidence of BTCC mining a Classic block.
 

Tomothy

Active Member
Mar 14, 2016
130
317
I thought the big news was the fact that F2pool had joined in?

Total Classic blocks:65 / 1000 ( 6.5% )
KnCMiner = 37 blocks
F2Pool = 12 blocks
Slush = 15 blocks
 
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freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
If Classic rises beyond 10% then things could get interesting quickly. Strange things happen to crowds when 10% begin to do something new; madness and delusion hopefully!
I think you're referring to this: http://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2902
Scientists at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have found that when just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society.
I guess belief that we need to move away from Core is > 10% already, just those damn blocks...
 

solex

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 22, 2015
1,558
4,693
Anyone care for a prediction game?

At what percentage will the last 1000 Classic-version mined blocks exceed the percentage of 2MB+ supporting full-nodes?

I predict 45%. Then the miners will be leading the nodes for a race to the finish line.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
The price might just hold for long enough so that most will continue believing until it is already to late. The price could just hold while Bitcoin is overtaken. Also keep in mind the vast majority of potential capital will not be coming from the Bitcoiners of today but from the masses coming into the ecosystem, the question is where will these new people put their funds. The majority of Bitcoiners might just continue to hold and believe in Core during this process. Like I said before many of them will continue to believe for much longer, even when it is obvious to most what has happened, the folly of arrogance.

Much of my skepticism stems from the idea that after segwit is implemented it will no longer be possible to increase the blocksize again because of certain peculiarities in the code that is being introduced in segwit, which would break if the blocksize was increased again. Someone please correct me if I am wrong since I would gain much more confidence in Bitcoin if that was not the case. That is why now I am seeing that as a point of no return, which is why the recent statement from slush and results of the mining voting is making me think that segwit will be implemented, and I do not want to be a part of such a Bitcoin at all.
The spinoff/fork differential in price is key; price drop by itself only expresses ambiguous warning that many people will simply take to reinforce their current view.

For Corecoins to diverge in price from what we will want to call bitcoins, there needs to be substantial difference in what people think the values of the two Bitcoin ledger-copies will end up being. Right now too many people continue to think Core will keep things acceptable for the future (including promised timely blocksize increase), so there is not enough difference to motivate an exchange to offer fork or spinoff coin futures. It would still seem just a bit premature when I think about it realistically. This kind of unprecedented maneuver won't happen until things start getting ridiculous.

Think from the position of an investor that is not down in the weeds of this debate like we are. They will simply assume Core's promises are sincere and see no reason to do anything unorthodox like forking or spinning off, and - they may say - even should such a thing be needed, we would like to assume for the time being that it is not.

"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."
- Mark Twain​

The conservative position is to assume things will work out with Core and that they are not totally bonkers. "If they do turn out to be totally bonkers, we can adjust when demand rises substantially beyond the capacity they are willing to offer," they will say. And exchanges may say, "In fact how can we really even justify offering an investment product before that happens?"

The darkmarket subreddits provide a reality check whenever the rest of the community goes crazy with worry over this or that. I have never seen even one single commenter complain about Bitcoin transaction delays or fees on those subs, and although a few markets probably accept altcoins I haven't seen anyone complain about, say, Agora not taking anything but Bitcoin. Any questions are about how to tumble and other things unrelated to network issues.

This shows that all this blocksize high alert full blocks / slow confirmations / etc. is future projection in terms of practical effect on real commerce. If the darkmarket subs were saying anything about this I might be sympathetic to guys like /u/Vibr8gKiwi. But as it stands this is just pure anticipatory angst. Warranted by people like us, yes, and there is also the Fidelity Effect, but that degree of hypothetical growth is not enough to get exchanges setting up something unfamiliar like fork arbitrage via futures trading.

If and when things do get ridiculous, and we do see start to see actual commercial users who don't know shit about Bitcoin complaining and darkmarkets starts switching to altcoins for commerce because of congestion and high fees, then the motivation will be there. Wake me when that happens :) (And I see several paths that never even lead to that needing to happen.)

As for Segwit preventing future increases in blocksize...with spinoffs anything is possible. To think that Segwit could prevent something in Bitcoin proper would seem to conflate Bitcoin the ledger with Core the protocol that happens to be what most people are using to update the ledger now. The only thing that needs to stay intact for Bitcoin to continue is the record of the keypairs and their balances (the ledger itself).
 
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cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
i found this tweet by @kyletorpey to be interesting. the part about a DAC. kyle's a rabid Core follower and he's been putting up a pro-Core tweetstorm recently :


we know that Blockstream thinks they "own" Bitcoin but i've always been puzzled by what i believed to be blind following of the avg small blockist who is not a shareholder in Blockstream. i've always thought of them as technical cultists worshiping their core dev masters out of blind faith as part of the brotherhood. Kyle is a decent representation of the avg small blockist, imo.

a tweet like this makes it appear, though, that the avg small blockist thinks he also owns Bitcoin, much like a shareholder of a corporation or DAC. this is somewhat of a distinction from what i believed previously. as "owners" of Bitcoin, it would be natural for them to view a "fee mkt" as a source of revenue that is to be "sold" on behalf of the DAC. but instead as a means to push tx's offchain to the DAC's proprietary products; LN & SC's. as well, they could as shareholders tap into that corporate revenue stream by becoming LN hub owners of the future or as a SC creator. nevermind that it takes away from miner revenue which is seen as a necessary evil to be tolerated today but maybe not tomorrow if the LN or SC can be made to take over Bitcoin tx fee processing entirely in the future. and this is where Blockstream comes in. they are not seen as a threat by small blockists but instead like a well paid board of directors acting on behalf of the corporation seeking to increase shareholder value through whatever trickery necessary. in this sense, of course, they would back them if they work to give the avg shareholder an opportunity to increase their personal revenue streams in the future thru a variety of opportunities not just confined to LN or SC's. my thinking also jives well with Trace Mayer's recent meme of "hiring" Bitcoin. Trace is clearly looking to be paid for his services. well, if Bitcoin is his DAC, then he gets paid if he gets "hired". note: this thinking doesn't even have to be front-of-mind conscious to represent the reality of how they think. my theory can be simply justified by their actions.

the big blockists, otoh, don't think they own Bitcoin, the network. they view it as a public good; a payment and monetary platform that should be shared with the world for the betterment of humanity, not to be exploited for fees. yes, they own BTC units which serve as the incentive to drive the network and hope they Moon out of greed of course. but that is quite a different thing than believing you have the right to "determine" Bitcoin economics thru fee markets and general distribution of supply and access via mere technical supply restraints like blocksize. these types of ideas can only come about if you think you own Bitcoin, the platform. big blockists don't believe in centrally planned "discounts" or "fee paying spam". afterall, Bitcoin has the potential to do great good for the average citizen of the world currently plagued by fiat central banking. big blockists aren't just looking for a similar replacement of corrupted governance by another name. they want real change in the world and are willing to fight to "share" Bitcoin. they believe in hands off and free mkts.

anyways, my thought of the day.
 
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tynwald

Member
Dec 8, 2015
69
176
If Classic rises beyond 10% then things could get interesting quickly. Strange things happen to crowds when 10% begin to do something new; madness and delusion hopefully!
2 things affect markets (made up of people, that is) - fear and greed. Both come into play when a "rumour" of block size change starts to look like its turning into a fact ...
 
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Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410



EDIT: We didn't cross the 10% Classic hash power limit in the 24 hour window. I checked the numbers, and we missed it by just one single block time! (One Classic block popped out of the 24h window at the same time as the 10%+ block got in!) Anyway... we''ll celebrate when it actually happens. Shouldn't take too much time...
 
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Lee Adams

Member
Dec 23, 2015
89
74
For those who are curious I have just concatenated the logs of the reddit voting bot i have been running since mid January. It has been a busy bee.

http://expirebox.com/download/4b00467e360a4f70c9f5e058c5241e47.html
If this is true, please stop. You really do not have to sink to this level. Now all our downvotes of core trolls can be ignored as 'just a bot'. If this is true, then you have just done so much harm to the anti-censorship cause.
[doublepost=1458775722][/doublepost]
downvoted ciphera
Obviously ciphera has his own bot to upvote his posts!
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
its reddit! and an up-vote and down-vote button, I don't base my self esteem on the number of votes I get its not an important measure.

This vote rigging cuts both ways and it means nothing. People like Adam Back are all bent out of shape because he gets down-votes. Hey Adam, I give you a down-vote every-time I see you post unless you says something in defence of Satoshi's Bitcoin that has no ramifications for Blockstream.

I'm also convinced I may have voting bots that just troll me, I am pro XT and still run an XT node, I first noticed teh vote rigging when I was actively posting on r/bitcoin and r/bitcoinxt I would get about 10 or so up-votes and then down-votes. While my vote count would sometimes go quite high on r/bitcoin it would always be brought down to a 1 or -1 but my comments over on r/bitcoinxt would sometimes end up with -7 or 8.
 

albin

Active Member
Nov 8, 2015
931
4,008
@cypherdoc

I'm super averse to the rhetorical form that Torpey is using there, which Luke-jr is routinely guilty of in practically every comment he makes anywhere. You can't disagree with somebody by saying "A is really B" where B is just some vague, weak analogy, especially when B is something super undefined like a "DAC". That form of rhetoric is not actually an argument, it's a sophist technique where you pedantically correct somebody on the basis of some concept you completely made up.

Here's possibly the most famous example of Torpey's technique which we all know and love:

They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the Internet. And again, the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,995
i found this tweet by @kyletorpey to be interesting. the part about a DAC. kyle's a rabid Core follower and he's been putting up a pro-Core tweetstorm recently :


we know that Blockstream thinks they "own" Bitcoin but i've always been puzzled by what i believed to be blind following of the avg small blockist who is not a shareholder in Blockstream. i've always thought of them as technical cultists worshiping their core dev masters out of blind faith as part of the brotherhood. Kyle is a decent representation of the avg small blockist, imo.

a tweet like this makes it appear, though, that the avg small blockist thinks he also owns Bitcoin, much like a shareholder of a corporation or DAC. this is somewhat of a distinction from what i believed previously. as "owners" of Bitcoin, it would be natural for them to view a "fee mkt" as a source of revenue that is to be "sold" on behalf of the DAC. but instead as a means to push tx's offchain to the DAC's proprietary products; LN & SC's. as well, they could as shareholders tap into that corporate revenue stream by becoming LN hub owners of the future or as a SC creator. nevermind that it takes away from miner revenue which is seen as a necessary evil to be tolerated today but maybe not tomorrow if the LN or SC can be made to take over Bitcoin tx fee processing entirely in the future. and this is where Blockstream comes in. they are not seen as a threat by small blockists but instead like a well paid board of directors acting on behalf of the corporation seeking to increase shareholder value through whatever trickery necessary. in this sense, of course, they would back them if they work to give the avg shareholder an opportunity to increase their personal revenue streams in the future thru a variety of opportunities not just confined to LN or SC's. my thinking also jives well with Trace Mayer's recent meme of "hiring" Bitcoin. Trace is clearly looking to be paid for his services. well, if Bitcoin is his DAC, then he gets paid if he gets "hired". note: this thinking doesn't even have to be front-of-mind conscious to represent the reality of how they think. my theory can be simply justified by their actions.

the big blockists, otoh, don't think they own Bitcoin, the network. they view it as a public good; a payment and monetary platform that should be shared with the world for the betterment of humanity, not to be exploited for fees. yes, they own BTC units which serve as the incentive to drive the network and hope they Moon out of greed of course. but that is quite a different thing than believing you have the right to "determine" Bitcoin economics thru fee markets and general distribution of supply and access via mere technical supply restraints like blocksize. these types of ideas can only come about if you think you own Bitcoin, the platform. big blockists don't believe in centrally planned "discounts" or "fee paying spam". afterall, Bitcoin has the potential to do great good for the average citizen of the world currently plagued by fiat central banking. big blockists aren't just looking for a similar replacement of corrupted governance by another name. they want real change in the world and are willing to fight to "share" Bitcoin. they believe in hands off and free mkts.

anyways, my thought of the day.
So, within this framework you no longer need to think of the average small blockist as a blind follower, fanatic, minion, or religious cultist of a core dev run wild. You could even get rid of the conspiracy theory that they are out to destroy Bitcoin, although I'm sure there are plenty of vested interests out there trying to do so in reality. They are all mere shareholders of the same corporation seeking to retain control, be hired, and get paid fees. All facilitated by a well paid board of directors. Somehow they think that if they are successful at doing this, their shares (BTC exchange price) will skyrocket. Nothing can be further from the truth.
 
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BldSwtTrs

Active Member
Sep 10, 2015
196
583
It's very interesting.

The DAC concept was invented by Daniel "bytemaster" Larimer, the founder of Bitshares. At that time he was explaining that POS is a better mechanism than POW mainly because:
- it's a better governance mechanism: interests are better aligned when holders have the power rather than miners
- it's cheaper: no inflation needed to assure the security of the network, less cost means more profitability. Again, better for holders (treated as shareholders in this frame).

And he was trying to sell that, because of these factors, Bitcoin will soon become obsolete and explained that what he was doing with Bitshares was the future.

I think his insight can turn out to be very useful in our particular circumstances. If Bitcoin is to be treated as DAC, then it's a very poor DAC that will be outcompeted because its governance mechanism is shitty and inefficient.

In order to survive, Bitcoin has to be more than a DAC. Bitcoin need to be treated as the Internet, not as a corporation. If Bitcoin is to become the something akin to Internet, then its shitty governance mechanism (where power is very hard to capture) will turn out to be its main strength.

DAC-lovers should buy altcoins, and let market mechanisms operate within Bitcoin (here we can remember the seminal Ronald Coase's paper framing corporations as infringement of market mechanisms).
 
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