Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

sickpig

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
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Between these many awesome scaling-related concepts submitted for improving Bitcoin:

- weak blocks (too lazy to look up who originally came up with that, sorry)
- subchains (@Peter R )
- diff blocks (Bitcoin9000)
- interleaving (also new to me, thanks @jl777 for bringing it up)

and given the fact that some of them might be orthogonal - does anyone else think that there needs to be a Scaling Competition (with measurable results and the option of adopting several of these at once) for the future "roadmap of Bitcoin", virtually speaking... ?

Personally I can't wait to see some hard numbers on the possible capacity increases that each of these can bring. Hopefully some analysts can bring some maths to the coming on-chain scaling conference!

Honeybadger heard knowledge is power, loves him some more knowledge.
@freetrader you forgot to mention @Peter Tschipper xthin/xval (BUIP010), it is already coded and tested and will be part of BU 0.12.0

During the test phase we observed a reduction of network traffic due to block propagation of at least an order of magnitude.

That means that that to propagate your 1MB block on avg you need only 100KB.


edit: @Norway sorry for the double, you beat me for a few secs.
 

steffen

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
118
163
I tried to get in touch with the Bitcoin9000 through bitcointalk.org
But I have no response. Can anybody tell me where to look, or are these/this person(s) full of shit?
Satoshi wants extreme privacy. But Satoshi, if you read this, you should really have a way for your allies to get in touch with you. I am sure some people could offer you win-win arrangements.
EDIT: I don't think Satoshi reads here. Bitco.in is not accessible over Tor.
 
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Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
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@sickpig
Double is very much better than nothing!

BTW... Just look at this and tell me you didn't laugh. I will ChangeTip your ass if you can convince me that it's not funny:
[doublepost=1457443784][/doublepost]@steffen
Maybe they do a "Satoshi" regarding privacy. But it's not helping the on-chain scaling conference.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
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That's from Jorge Stolfi if you haven't seen that and it still a draft so I think we should wait for him to post it. ;)

I'd like to see someone "from the other side" object his statements. I admit, I'm biased, but to me, that looks pretty solid. :)
 
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Erdogan

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
476
855
I like the extreme thinblocks. Application specific compression. I don't see why these also can not be stored, saving disk in the same manner. Reading blocks from the beginning, the node manages the unspent transaction output set only.
 

steffen

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
118
163
Similar, but not identical. Subchains as described here are strictly "append only," whereas in the Reddit-linked paper, weak blocks can both add or subtract transactions (but the authors don't specify how this is done.
In the Bitcoin9000 paper the diff blocks should just be interpreted as what transactions a miner is trying to put into a block at present. So it could be all the transactions mentioned in a previous diff block plus some additional transactions minus perhaps a few transaction. No transactions are undone or unconfirmed because they are removed in a diff block. The proposal is not about more frequent mini-confirmations. It is about only needing to send a minimal amount of data when a real block is found.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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I am sure it is the work of of Dr Craig Steven Wright. It is documented on
that he was working on modelling bitcoin scalability (35 minutes) and that he would be releasing a paper next year. The recording is from 2015. The whole video is very good.
the guy with the cowboy hat is @haq4good or JVP or NewLiberty (on BCT) who i was tweeting with yesterday. he's a reasonable guy and getting him to understand Classic would be a good thing:

[doublepost=1457450787][/doublepost]this could be a good place for gold and stocks to get in gear to the downside.
[doublepost=1457451440,1457450476][/doublepost]this saddens me:

http://bravenewcoin.com/news/trace-mayer-bitcoin-core-has-no-real-competition/
 

Norway

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2015
2,424
6,410
So @steffen . Can you give me info that I can use? I just want the most relevant people to be present at the on-chain scaling online conference.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@Norway : IRC presence for the conf - please? oh and .. dates?

@sickpig : Sorry about forgetting the legendary xthin blocks. Didn't mean it, pure oversight, not sure how could I forget! Added...
[doublepost=1457455607][/doublepost]
But we go to a reality where governments have to be accountable of what they are doing with their money.
Excuse me, @Norway, can you pass me some of that strong stuff?
 

jl777

Active Member
Feb 26, 2016
279
345
Could someone review the interleaved blocks method for attack vectors?

I want to make sure I didnt miss any exploits against it before I code up a proof of concept. I think I can implement it with a small overlay layer on top of an arbitrary consensus mechanism, so it should be able to interleave normal blocks, subchain blocks, thin blocks, fat blocks, giant blocks, micro blocks, etc

At the high level, a block is just a grouping of tx that creates an ordering of the tx within and relative to other blocks, ie for (i=0; i<numtx; i++) will iterate through all the tx in a block. So the value of numtx changing, it is not affecting the code logic at all. The technical issue about large blocks are more about internal buffer sizes, especially if you connect to a lot of peers, so having 1GB blocks would require internal design changes as just changing a #define wont be enough like it is at the smaller sizes

Anybody that is saying that 2MB block is somehow going to break everything (other than backward compatibility) seems to be using non-technical modes of thinking. The economic effect is quite clear, especially at the border of totally full blocks, ie higher txfees.

And who wants higher txfees?
And who determines which hardfork wins?

The answers to the above two questions will lead to the solution. This is a politics thing so of course the answer is the normal answer.

James
 

jl777

Active Member
Feb 26, 2016
279
345
RBF is just ctrl z.
I don't want this to be a part of bitcoin. It just make a clusterfuck of transactions in a market where fees are volatile.
I feel that RBF has been politicized...

Right now, the RBF defined behavior is possible to happen, but it is not defined so you cant rely on this behavior. RBF is only enabled if a non-permanent sequenceid is used.

Granted changing the sequenceid so it is basically an RBF field is an overreach and how any vin with RBF enabled makes the entire tx RBF enabled creates inter-vin behavior which is arguably not good design, but it is unclear what it would mean for a tx to be partly RBF. Maybe for SIGHASH_SINGLE the RBF would be isolated to the corresponding output, so if the RBF behaves in a SIGHASH_ALL manner even for other sighash modes, then it is clearly wrong.

So there are some technical issues with RBF, but the big argument I see used all the time is that zeroconf is broken with RBF. So far NOBODY has explained to me why anybody would combine zeroconf (the weakest security mode) with RBF (using a non permanent sequenceid)

I would think that it is very, very, very bad design of zeroconf implementation to use non-permanent sequenceids. The only thing zeroconf seems to have in common with RBF is that they are both oriented around offchain things, and maybe that is why they got lumped into the same thing? Until I see a valid explanation of why it makes sense to do RBF zeroconf, then saying RBF breaks zeroconf is like saying RBF breaks a really poorly designed zeroconf system, which was already broken.

Use PERMANENT sequenceds if you are using zeroconf. I think 99.9%+ of transactions use permanent sequenceids. Most use of RBF enabled is for offchain, and defining its behavior would allow broadcasting transactions that will be updated without worry the wrong one will get confirmed, ie micropayment channels using mempool instead of private servers. But this does increase the load on the relay servers. So maybe the economic point of allowing micropayment channels without any private servers is the goal?

So there are several valid reasons that RBF is not right, but "it makes any bitcoin tx reversible", a hysterical statement on the level of "anything that is not 1MB block is wrong"

I would prefer an elevated level of dialogue and understand that the deeper technical issues about RBF are not easy to understand, especially as to how they interact with sighash modes and offchain protocols. I await correction to my technical analysis, but please dont quote me articles that dont have any technical analysis as proof.

James
 
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@cypherdoc
OMG this thead is epic! Got really drunk last night. Wake up. Make a new drink. Start to read all the posts here from when i went to bed. And it's impossible! It's so high quality, but it's too many letters to process. My brain is probably stuck with 1 mb. And this thread is bloating my mempool.

@Christoph Bergmann
I loved your post on /r/bitcoin, and it's necessary. And there will be more pain. But I beg you. Don't sell your coins. Don't become a weak hand. Don't get fucked. I say this because I don't want you to lose. Buy more!
How can you get drunk in norway? Did you celebrate some glorious trades?

Don't worry. I just don't have the feeling we will go back to bull-market soon, so I try to short -- (usually I loose when I try ...). Also I'm still in possession of most of my coins, hopefully, today I had some kind of problem, the software did just override my old wallet.dat cause it was unable to read it after pruning (really strange this - but I have a copy, unfortunately one month old, and now I run several programs to recover files and search for privkeys ... hope they succeed ..-
 
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Aquent

Active Member
Aug 19, 2015
252
667
It looks like the complete transformation of bitcoin has been achieved. The miners are too divided to act, the arguments of the master politicians who argue conspiracy at each step and are always on the attack (the best strategy), too effective, the brainwashing in communication channels such as r/bitcoin, on irc where much development chat takes place, on the mailing list, the ddosing.

Their story is just too alluring. Their conspiracies too mind fucking. Segwit will now be incorporated, making onchain scaling impossible. RBF is now necessary. Bitcoin is transformed. They succeeded by using the same methods as others when they took control over our forefathers. We failed in the same manner they did.

The torch of bitcoin's dream will have to move somewhere else and carried in another fora. We lost the battle, but I hope, not the war.
 
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I am sure it is the work of of Dr Craig Steven Wright. It is documented on
that he was working on modelling bitcoin scalability (35 minutes) and that he would be releasing a paper next year. The recording is from 2015. The whole video is very good.
This was the guy that was presented as Satoshi some month ago.

I wrote a short notice about it and forgot it, like everybody. Some weeks ago a reader mailed me, saying, "I'm totally sure this guy is Satoshi". I thought again about it, and if you go through the story, it really makes more sense than every other Satoshi we had before.

Would be great if he is behind Bitcoin9000.

But, serious, did anybody read the paper?
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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jl777

Active Member
Feb 26, 2016
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What if we made an onchain scalable solution that pays the miners more txfees than the SW version?

The miners will support the version that gets them more revenues. This is politics
 
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