Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

AdrianX

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Aug 28, 2015
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Regarding the Jubilee idea, it’s fundamental to our survival, given the underlying beliefs we have: memes. In a way wealth accumulation will manifest in revenue generating asset accumulation. (not a problem if we had a free market) That wealth eventually concentrates in the hands of super minority facilitated by memes that allow monopolies to exist. The Jubilee is just a reset that keeps the order and prevents unrest.

In Adam Smith’s wealth of nations “I had to read it as part of Bitcoin introduction 101” he points out that the land lord is the ultimate benefactor of all progress. I don’t think he ever imagined a world where there was no more land for those pioneers who would want to start a new homestead to up and go. I think he thought land lords could never own the planet. Paraphrasing Smith, he says all value created by anyone in the economy will ultimately go to the land lords.

James D'Angelo presented an idea called Sno-Caps - The People's Cap-And-Trade


I don’t like the idea of trading carbon credits but his idea addresses a far more fundamental concept. And it’s the same fundamental concept behind the need for a Jubilee. It starts with a meme that land is property. Imagine we had a similar crypto ledger where every human alive had an equal right to land, and they could rent it on the free market. Value created in the economy would go to the value creators and avoid the land tax of landlords. instead it would be a social compensation or the new Jubilee. for those displeased by the monopolistic use of land.

Property has many cultural definitions: it is stuff that burns, or stuff you can steel or stuff you can move, stuff you can take with you. But land as property is a dominant meme that has reshaped the planet.

As a matter of fact land is only ever rented by the living. Some of the living have a birthright to tax the rest of humanity for rent, and this is causes a fundamental imbalance in the free market economics, (not that you own your house you hardly do given all the tax you need to pay and someone else own most of the mineral rights etc.) This creates problems, something a Jubilee solves, it allows the owners of the ultimate revenue generating asset to reset to keep the peace so they can carry on.
 
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cypherdoc

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cypherdoc

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apparently:

0.16 Joules / GHs = Best efficiency on the market right now.
nope:

According to the report, the data centre will house bitcoin miners containing BitFury's 28nm and soon-to-be-released 16nm ASIC chips. BitFury announced in September that it had completed the tape-out for the 16nm chips, which achieve energy efficiency of 0.06 joules per gigahash.

absolutely extraordinary. $100M:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitfury-details-100-million-georgia-data-center/
 
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Peter R

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@ cypherdoc

That's a big mining facility! The average output of the Hoover dam is about 500 MW; this facility could take 20% of that. It is going to be built in Georgia; not the state but a small country in the Caucasus Mountains between Russia and Iran. Perhaps they've secured inexpensive hydropower…

 
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cypherdoc

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it's huge.

i see some guys on reddit screaming centralization. i see decentralization on a macro scale. we're getting these huge setups all over the world, which is a great thing for Bitcoin as no one gvt will be able to shut these massive revenue centers down across the board.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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i figured i'd go check out Yellen's speech today given her health issue. here's a selected slide. if the talk itself is too long for you (it is for me as i think the Fed's explanations can be BS), it's worth the time and effort to scroll down to the bottom and look at the slides which indicate what is happening however. they support my contention that we are in a period of at least a significant disinflation or as i prefer, a deflation, contrary to what the gold bugs will tell you:


http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/yellen20150924a.pdf
 

Mengerian

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Aug 29, 2015
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So given that debt is a social construct, we should ask how this social construct was created, what makes it legitimate, how could it be altered, and who should be able to alter it.

In the case of private debts, where parties entered that arrangement voluntarily, what moral authority does some third party have to come and alter the arrangement?

In the case of government debt, however, things are different. The youth of Greece were never asked whether they are willing to pay 50% or more of their lifelong income in order to support government pensioners, and interest payments to German bankers. When governments borrow money their only collateral is the ability to use force to extract payment from citizens in the future.

So yeah, a "Jubilee" here would be a good thing, the only problem is that governments and bankers have no incentive to repudiate the debt. They enjoy their cozy little symbiotic relationship where the government can buy votes and funnel money to their buddies, and the banks get risk-free profits backed by the barrel of a gun.

The nice thing about Bitcoin is that is voluntary. No-one ever forced me recognize value in the Bitcoin ledger, I went in with eyes wide open, and if it loses value it was a risk I entered willingly. By the same token, no-one has the authority come along and inflate away its value with a central bank. So UP with Bitcoin! :)
 

Melbustus

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Aug 28, 2015
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it's huge.

i see some guys on reddit screaming centralization. i see decentralization on a macro scale. we're getting these huge setups all over the world, which is a great thing for Bitcoin as no one gvt will be able to shut these massive revenue centers down across the board.
100MW... For comparison, the NSA's Utah Datacenter, one of the largest (known) gov-owned datacenters, is projected to consume 65MW.
 
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rocks

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Sep 24, 2015
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Hi everyone, thanks for the PMs. Just saw them and found this, took some time off posting after the absurdity last month.

It is great everyone found each other here. The signal to noise ratio is amazing as well, am just catching up now.
 

rocks

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Sep 24, 2015
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I mean this in the nicest way possible, but that really is a long explanation of a fact that surely would be obvious to anyone who has ever run a business of any kind.

Imagine trying to convincing a Girl Scout that her optimal strategy is to sell fewer cookies rather than as many as possible.
Essentially the efforts to force fees up depend on a monopoly position. Basic micro economics 101 (and common sense) show the only way it is possible to make MORE money by selling LESS of something is if you have a monopoly position (either natural or artificial).

Bitcoin does not have a monopoly position, and if it behaves as one then some alternative will rapidly replace it. Everyone taking a fee pressure view is openly assuming that Bitcoin has won and has cemented it's position forever, and thus they can dictate terms to the world. Such a position is simply laughable.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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hmm. do the math on this one:

While 58% of survey-takers expect bitcoin and the blockchain to hit mainstream, accounting for 10% of global GDP, by 2025, WEF forecasted the expected date as 2027.
"Currently, the total worth of bitcoin in the blockchain is around $20bn, or about 0.025% of global GDP of around $80tn," the report read.

http://www.coindesk.com/world-economic-forum-governments-blockchain/
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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ok, the Bitcoin computer is on order...
 
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molecular

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Aug 31, 2015
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Would a transition to Bitcoin be the same, in a way, as a debt jubilee? Yes, I believe so, and perhaps Graeber would agree. But would this be good for humanity in the long term? Or would this one-time jubilee lock us into a rigid system where our encoding of debt is now immutable and not subject to the many other systems that form our societies? Would Bitcoin have an infinite memory for debt and would power eventually concentrate in the hands of a small number of individuals, to the detriment of the majority? Or would a dynamic ecosystem emerge where new currencies/jubilees are constantly emerging as a result of this inequality? How would this impact individual-state and state-state relationships?
Those are big questions worth discussing.

Regarding the bolded one about concentration of wealth, I'm usually arguing the opposite: with sound money being in prevalent use, wealth (and hence power) would tend to disperse rather than concentrate. I would like to argue the concentration of power is a more-or-less direct result of the type of monetary system we use (think bailouts, corruption, deficit spending, misallocations of capital, hidden inflation tax moving wealth from the 99 to the 0.01 percent, privatization of gains, socialization of risks and so on).

A world where debt is money that is created out of thin air by a small elite and their institutions is very different from a world where money is allowed to emerge privately. Quite fundamentally different and I'm guessing we probably got used to take some things for granted that are actually a result of that type of system being used (like "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer").

In a world of sound money (I'm assuming that's the type of money that will emerge to be used if people are left to make their own decisions (or just take that power back)) people have to suffer the consequences of their actions as should be. Risks are real and hence the concentration of wealth (supposedly happening by lending/borrowing for interest) is kept in check and made more careful by the possibility of default with no lender of last resort or taxpayer to do bailouts in cases of black (or even just gray) swans. Money will flow from those who spend to those who offer products and services. It will flow from the rich to the productive. At least that's what I'm trying to convince myself of and I know it's rather easy to argue against that (in the form of "xyz will still be the case", e.g: "means of production still in the hands of the elite" and so on)

Now for the other question wether a series of jubilees by adoption of yet other cryptocurrencies by the people would be the norm... well, maybe. Seems to me if this first 'revolution' works out and a 'jubilee by Bitcoin' happens, there's nothing holding back the people from doing it again should the need arise for some reason, right? Maybe a new type of "check and balance" can emerge here?

With all the questions not clearly answered it seems to me that the separation of money and state should in aggregate be good for society (the people). I draw that conclusion (invalidly, I know) simply by looking at all the bad that is produced by the state-sponsored fiat system.
 

sickpig

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Aug 28, 2015
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nope:

According to the report, the data centre will house bitcoin miners containing BitFury's 28nm and soon-to-be-released 16nm ASIC chips. BitFury announced in September that it had completed the tape-out for the 16nm chips, which achieve energy efficiency of 0.06 joules per gigahash.

absolutely extraordinary. $100M:

http://www.coindesk.com/bitfury-details-100-million-georgia-data-center/
kncminer seems to have "deployed" 16nm chip in June this year, alleged consumption 0.07J/GHs. according to their site the opening of new data centers in the north of Sweden is imminent (sep 2015).
 

BldSwtTrs

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Sep 10, 2015
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hmm. do the math on this one:

While 58% of survey-takers expect bitcoin and the blockchain to hit mainstream, accounting for 10% of global GDP, by 2025, WEF forecasted the expected date as 2027.
"Currently, the total worth of bitcoin in the blockchain is around $20bn, or about 0.025% of global GDP of around $80tn," the report read.

http://www.coindesk.com/world-economic-forum-governments-blockchain/
Why they say the total worth of bitcoin in the blockchain is around $20 billion?
 

BldSwtTrs

Active Member
Sep 10, 2015
196
583
@molecular so their sentence is bogus since they have written "worth of bitcoin".
And the claim that $17 billion of assets other than bitcoins are currently stored on the blockchain is quite surprising, what would be those assets?
 
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cypherdoc

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Gold down minus 12.60.

I'm getting that itchy finger already.