Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

cypherdoc

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albin

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@Richy_T

That could be the motivation for LN ironically potentially destroying Bitcoin, because all LN actually needs is a base layer to settle onto that supports the appropriate smart contracts. There is no reason LN couldn't just pivot onto a Blockstream federated permissioned ledger.
 

cypherdoc

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sickpig

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another idle thought: there is someone out there that consider fees prices been dependant on txs size rather than "value" be an issue?
 
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cypherdoc

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@sickpig

yeah, good pt.

it's just that miner can't get past fees/byte at this early stage due to fears of orphaning and whatnot. it IS crazy that you can send $millions for $0.04. not complaining of course :)
 
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freetrader

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Approx. what percentage of the current relay nodes need to support > 1MB (i.e. be Classic, XT or BU) so that the effects of a hard fork on end users (assuming they are running a > 1MB client too) are negligible?

I'm certain the math on this has been done, but can someone point me to it?
 

albin

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@sickpig @cypherdoc
Maybe that's part of the motivation for CT and blinding tx amounts. It's not inconceivable that miners might organically land on a multi-tiered fee/kb strategy. In fact I would be very surprised if we didn't see some kind of price discrimination for example if opt-in RBF actually makes it, because tx's with qualifying sequence numbers are just advertising to miners that they're willing to pay more.

@freetrader

There might not actually be an obvious % figure because Core nodes will voluntarily partition themselves from the network of Classic-compatible nodes, by considering nodes relaying 2MB max blocks as attackers.
 
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VeritasSapere

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@sickpig I think that it is good that fees are based on transaction size, since that is the resource that the users are paying the miners for. Creating a true free market for blockspace, based on the actual resources used, so that blocksize can be determined by real supply and demand.

I suppose it is also one of those nice advantages of Bitcoin that should be kept. It also benefits certain applications of Bitcoin like payment channels for instance.
 
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albin

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@VeritasSapere

That's labor theory of value. If tx value meaningfully divides tx senders into categories with different preferences, then price discriminating between groups becomes profit maximizing.
 
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cypherdoc

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because tx's with qualifying sequence numbers are just advertising to miners that they're willing to pay more.
can you explain what you mean by qualifying sequence numbers?
 

rocks

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But I share the sentiment that we don't need to save everybody's coffee-transaction on 5.000 computers all over the world secured by the strongest global computer network. I know, I'm not the one to decide what is spam and not, I strongly oppose the idea that anybody can define what's spam or not, and I know that if we say "no coffee" today we have to ask why we don't say "no monitor" tomorrow.
This seems to be a common view, but I'm not sure why.

Bitcoin is designed to be able to scale to very high levels because it is able to prune older transactions. Full nodes only need the header chain and UTXO set to operate (plus some amount of full block recent history). If Bitcoin scales to a very large scale I suspect we would see most full nodes do not maintain the full history (because they don't have to) and there would also exist a few archival nodes run as public services that contain the full history. This can all be done on the main chain as is today.

In the end bitcoin will scale to whatever the marginal cost of adding a transaction is vs the increased orphan rate risk. With IBLT and sub-chains this calculation works out to a very low fee per transaction which means bitcoin can and will accept coffee level transaction simply because it will be profitable to do so.

Storage is not a concern, they keep developing new tech for cold storage. Engadget just had an article on a new nano dot method that puts 350TB on a 1 inch square object. A few publicly funded archival nodes could contain a lot of coffee transactions....
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That could be the motivation for LN ironically potentially destroying Bitcoin, because all LN actually needs is a base layer to settle onto that supports the appropriate smart contracts. There is no reason LN couldn't just pivot onto a Blockstream federated permissioned ledger.
This point needs to be raised more. LN does not need Bitcoin, just a stable ledger under it.

Of course for that shift to happen there would need to be a significant number of use cases for LN. I still am not convinced there are any.
 
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cypherdoc

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the need to accomodate coffee tx's onchain would be an indicator of success, not failure, would it not?
 

lunar

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I believe it's possible to want to get in on the alternative channels option without believing you have to cripple Bitcoin to do so.

Bitcoin transactions will always have a non-zero cost and not be suitable for small micro-transactions *naturally*. There's opportunity for profit there.
Couldn't agree more. 21 may consider this to have the added bonus of also being a sophisticated troll, just to point out the hopelessness of trying to monopolise transaction fees.

I see a future with thousands of payment channels and networks all settling onto the bitcoin blockchain. Each channel will have to solve the Nash equilibrium to find (P)rice ≤ (Q)uantity for the required security and settlement times required. It's utter madness to be playing with P (fee per transaction) before we know what the limits of the network are. We are told Bitcoin is an experiment? Well didn't your science teacher tell you that playing with the variables mid experiment was fastest way to compromise the results?

It is my firm believe that fees should be kept to a minimum, not only to encourage as many uses for the main chain as possible but also to limit the complexity in calculations for payment channels. I suspect a FFM (forced fee market) will be worse for the argument 'Bitcoin as a settlement layer' too? How will these channels settle at marginal profits if they can't predict the cost of a transaction, due to the boom/bust supply shock nature of a fixed blocksize?
 

AdrianX

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@sickpig

yeah, good pt.

it's just that miner can't get past fees/byte at this early stage due to fears of orphaning and whatnot. it IS crazy that you can send $millions for $0.04. not complaining of course :)
It's not all that crazy it's intentionally designed that way. If it was a percentage of value, fee totals and network security could be denominated in a percentage of GDP. That would not be a free commodity market.

In order to reach an accurate fee based on marginal cost of production you need to charge based on the price of the commodity consumed.

Security comes in the the quantity of fees and the valed transactions distribution in the law of large number.
 

VeritasSapere

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@VeritasSapere
That's labor theory of value. If tx value meaningfully divides tx senders into categories with different preferences, then price discriminating between groups becomes profit maximizing.
I think that @AdrianX just explained it better then I did. But I do not entirely understand what you meant with price discriminating between groups, maybe you could expand on that more.
 
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awemany

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Bitcoin is designed to be able to scale to very high levels because it is able to prune older transactions. Full nodes only need the header chain and UTXO set to operate (plus some amount of full block recent history). If Bitcoin scales to a very large scale I suspect we would see most full nodes do not maintain the full history (because they don't have to) and there would also exist a few archival nodes run as public services that contain the full history. This can all be done on the main chain as is today.
And if you put the UTXO set into a Merkle tree, you can trade storage of the UTXO set on a full node against bandwidth for transmitting the necessary branches along the transaction. I am sure we won't run into that soon, but it is good to know that you can make another trade-off there.

(Note that this is different from UTXO commitments, but both ideas could be combined)
 
This seems to be a common view, but I'm not sure why.

Bitcoin is designed to be able to scale to very high levels because it is able to prune older transactions. Full nodes only need the header chain and UTXO set to operate (plus some amount of full block recent history). If Bitcoin scales to a very large scale I suspect we would see most full nodes do not maintain the full history (because they don't have to) and there would also exist a few archival nodes run as public services that contain the full history. This can all be done on the main chain as is today.

In the end bitcoin will scale to whatever the marginal cost of adding a transaction is vs the increased orphan rate risk. With IBLT and sub-chains this calculation works out to a very low fee per transaction which means bitcoin can and will accept coffee level transaction simply because it will be profitable to do so.

Storage is not a concern, they keep developing new tech for cold storage. Engadget just had an article on a new nano dot method that puts 350TB on a 1 inch square object. A few publicly funded archival nodes could contain a lot of coffee transactions.....
It's about visions of bitcoin's final state.

We already see Moore's Laws fading. E. G. Supercomputers did nearly stagnate the last 3-4 years. It's a mixture of physical limits, the satisfaction of needs and a trade-off between energy consumption und benefits. More important than enhancing home computers is it to enhance smartphones, that's why the development of home cpus fades. Supercomputers fullfill the needs of most scientific needs, the benefit of more giga/petaflops are limited, while the energy consumption grows exponentially. My home internet connection - it's really slow, 20/2 mbs - is enough to satisfy my needs and that of all my neighbours - streaming videos, uploading images, listening to music - there's not really a need to enhance it.

So ... IF technological progress can't keep up with Bitcoin-system eating the world's transactions, we will end up with a state, where private users are unable to connect directly with the network. If connecting to bitcoin means to first download and verify one day of 2GB-blogs and then being a node in an ocean of 2gb-blocks, than it will be too much for most home users. It's already not pleasure, but it's possible, and I highly prefer to do it and I think its ideologically essential to be able to do so.

Is this a problem? Not directly. Maybe we will have 10-20 Nodes, and every users pays a little, little fee to process his transactions. This nodes will be the new banks, but that state is much better as the current states, cause the users will be able to store their private key by themself (or by multisig) and they maybe have the choice to write a transaction by themself and give it to any node.

But it's not the perfect scenario for several reasons. It brings back the middle man and it adds some attacks by man with gun knocking on doors. Better would be a scenario where home users still can connect to the network without an intermediare while the network handles millions of transactions each second.

But it remains a bad idea to damage the current network. We should scale onchain as far as technologie allows the network to remain decentral.

To be honest, I think all I've written is fantasy, because Bitcoin will never ever be the favorite method to pay your coffee. Even I, as a bitcoin fanboy, prefer to pay my coffee and my beer with cash, because it's usually more comfortable. The most possible scenario is that bitcoin will never reach a number of transaction that can't be processed onchain.

P.S.: when nodes don't safe the whole blockchain we risk to loose the function of the bitcoin blockchain as a supernotary for any kind of information. I don't think this is a good idea. But maybe I just have a lack of knowledge about pruning.
 
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Melbustus

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Re Moore's Law... It may be true that the exact formulation of Moore's Law is ceasing to remain true (eg, that every 18 months we double the number of transistors we can get on a sq-mm of silicon), but I don't think that's really the relevant metric in general, and certainly not for Bitcoin related matters.

What I think we should look at is the *cost* per unit of compute/storage/bandwidth, and how's that dropping over time.

Furthermore, and perhaps related, when we talk about "decentralization" and nodes pertaining to bitcoin, we should be more precise, and perhaps assert that the goal is something like:

"Bitcoin is sufficiently decentralized if anyone can *cheaply* access credible blockchain state information when desired."

Unpacking that a little, note that it says nothing about the *number* of full nodes, nor what hardware a node should be able to run on, etc. It instead uses an economic metric, which I think is the correct target (debates about definition of "cheap" notwithstanding). Now obviously we have to figure out what's "credible" blockchain information, but say you have 100 big institutions globally, in different political jurisdictions, with different structures, and different incentives/goals/managers/cultures, etc. It's probably the case that if you randomly ask for blockdata from some reasonable subset of them, if the data all agrees, you can consider the data credible. I'd assert that if you can do that at minimal cost, the network's topology is such that Bitcoin retains its critical censorship-resistance property.
 

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