@cypherdoc every once in a while the hub operators still have to use the main chain to settle all the micropayments belonging to an hub, no?
I guess he meant block the stream blockers at blockthestream corp.I've just finished to watch the video, kudos @Peter R, impressive presentation.
On a side note the host really make my day when he said "don't block the stream people, don't block the stream" at the end of your talk.
This is one of the concern it's also a good reason to have control over what code changes can be made to layer 0 in order to preserve your layer 1 business.I have repeatedly said I like the idea of Lightning Networks. So here's a worry that came to mind after rereading the LN paper:
What if changes, even soft-forking ones to the protocol, new opcodes and the like, will make it harder for Bitcoin layer-0 to scale by making the block structure, transaction dependency linking and so forth more complex and preventing possible future optimizations on that front?
This does worry me as I think right now layer-0 can be optimized quite a bit and I think we should be VERY CAREFUL to not silently accept changes there that would make it harder to scale Bitcoin layer-0.
Yes, but it's just a net settlement tx which would be a fraction of what the hub itself charges in fees.@cypherdoc every once in a while the hub operators still have to use the main chain to settle all the micropayments belonging to an hub, no?
Yep, and don't expect any back porting of innovations from a SC competing with the MC. Why? Because if I was a corporation or institution that paid Blockstream millions of dollars to dev and maintain my SC, I'd have an airtight non compete signed ahead of time preventing just such a back port.This is one of the concern it's also a good reason to have control over what code changes can be made to layer 0 in order to preserve your layer 1 business.
This would imply all other implementations that are popular would be a threat. Mike and XT serve as an example on how to avoid total control of layer 0 in implementing a layer 1 application, he's done it with Lighthouse.
Whoever posted that was apparently extremely knowledgeable about how Lightning Network functions, despite being new to community as evidenced by having only created his account only 6 days before making that post.If, once LN exists, I send you $1,000 over LN, that's equally as good as my sending you $1,000 direct to your cold storage minus a BTC miners fee for you to withdraw it.
I don't see any Lightning Network supporters rushing in to correct /u/AnonobreadII in the first thread, or rushing in to correct /u/110101002 in the second thread. which is odd because both of them can't be right at the same time.To use the Lightning Network without the risk of the third party stealing your coins, you need your BTC secured by a dedicated payment channel, which again, costs a tx fee per user to set up.
I haven't done flow analysis on money but common sense indicates that this "net settlement" would likely mostly be a "sum".Yes, but it's just a net settlement tx which would be a fraction of what the hub itself charges in fees.
The discussion is fairly scattered between here, Reddit and the dev list. I just made a thread to continue discussion of more technical aspects of this paper:2.) is your paper discussed somewhere? I have some questions that have surely been discussed before.
to be fair, the old gold threads were never moderated, in the sense that i could delete certain posts ala rpietila has done. i chose to set it up that way.Thanks @elehal
Even though cypher has a bit of an ego I admire the fact that he has never resorted to banning participants once a conversation has degraded to an unproductive level. It's actually morbidly entertaining sometimes.
there have been plenty of objections to the way the voting process has been set up. there seems to be a difference in opinion as to what would be considered a fool proof non gameable way of conducting a vote and i've seen several suggestions. that seems problematic. i do agree that miner self determination in terms of block size is way better than core dev though.Wouldn't it be best to put more control into miners hands and less developer control? I've always thought of miners as "shareholders" in the system who have real infrastructure costs that would be useless without bitcoin. They also have a means of voting that can't be gamed and they know their stake is healthiest if there are many shareholders. If BIP100 was implemented wouldn't they rationally vote for high limits anyways? As long as 51% are thinking long-term? It seems if we let miners control the network, as long as 51% are thinking long-term, wouldn't they will do what's best for both parties anyways?
I see it as the panacea for bitcoin (along with decentralized oracles like Truthcoin -- assuming they can work) to become the reserve currency it needs to be. Fiat / btc exchanges would simply become gateways as Lightning hubs dealing in bitcoin-settled derivatives (options, futures, etc) offer superior security. Once they become liquid enough, people would never have to leave the bitcoin ecosystem. They could hedge to any currency they wanted through Lightning derivatives exchanges.Speaking of Lightning Network, it strikes me that exchanges would be an ideal use-case for LN channels.