Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

Roger_Murdock

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Dec 17, 2015
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I was thinking more about this idea of the "blocked stream." And the more I think about it, the more it strikes me that this is a really damn good analogy for our situation (Dad joke: it's also a really good dam analogy).

This analogy first gives us the idea of pressure. If increased transactional demand causes the equilibrium block size to be larger than the artificial limit, that's going to create well, pressure. Now some (who I'll allow to remain nameless) might hope that the pressure caused by blocking the stream(TM) will simply force more of the transactional flow to be diverted to their preferred off-chain solutions. But that can only work if the dam holds.

So focusing on another aspect of the analogy, what is this "dam" made of? Well, it turns out, nothing very substantial. We might think of one layer of the dam as the "inconvenience barrier," the fact that, until recently, it was kind of a pain for most users to mod the Core code to set their own block size limit parameters. Another layer might be thought of as the "psychological barrier." This one I think is well-illustrated by that cartoon I linked to the other day. Breaking down this barrier simply involves recognizing that Core is not Bitcoin, we already have the power to change the block size limit ourselves by choosing what code we run, and we should exercise that power because allowing the decision about a key economic parameter to be made in a centralized manner is incredibly dangerous. If I had to name a third layer, I might say the "collective action barrier," i.e., we can all raise the limit if a substantial number of us act in concert, but no one can raise it by themselves. (Frankly, I think this last one is pretty minor compared to the first two.)

This provides a good summary of why I'm so optimistic that the limit will get raised. The pressure that's attempting to sweep away the dam is only going to increase as blocks get fuller and fees start to rise significantly. (As far I can tell, as of right now, this pressure has barely even started.) In addition, the dam itself is beginning to weaken. The "inconvenience barrier" is being rapidly eroded by Bitcoin Unlimited. Bitcoin Unlimited and the ideas behind it are also contributing to the erosion of the "psychological barrier." Maybe it's my own bias, but just based on what I've seen in the past week, BU seems to be starting to capture mind share very quickly.

(As an aside, this analogy also provides a nice visual for my thoughts on the frequently voiced concern that the current obstruction will allow an alt-ledger to take over. To me, that would be sort of like our metaphorical river tunneling through a half mile of solid rock to flow through an alternate available channel. The market could do that if it had to. But it doesn't have to because it's not the path of least resistance. Again, our "dam" here is mostly an illusion.)
 

solex

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@Roger_Murdock
TBH that "inconvenience barrier" has a name: The Relay Network.

Now, it has done good work helping the Chinese miners get their large blocks to the West and vice-versa, the downside is its centralization so that a subset of nodes have an optimal channel which most nodes lack. Perhaps we should have put in the BU Articles of Federation the concept of "node equality", all nodes must be equal for peer-to-peer data transfer functionality, the only functional difference is that some mine while many don't.

Matt Corallo will not allow the relay network to support blocks >1MB. Ideally he would have done that as soon as XT released its BIP101 patch, as evidence of impartiality. He didn't and he has the mining-power by the short and curlies.

BU will likely languish the way XT has unless one of these approaches is implemented to allow major miners to move from the existing relay network.

a) implement thin-blocks with XT
b) implement subchains
c) implement IBLT
d) crowd-fund a BU relay network which is as good as the existing one*

I think (d) is the way to go, although (a) might soon be possible. (b) might not be enough on its own, (c) might take too long to get done.

*As a temporary measure to be decommissioned when a,b,c or some combination is done.
 
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albin

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Nov 8, 2015
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@solex

Is it possible that the relay network situation is what makes miners so conservative? From what I understand Matt Corallo himself has to maintain servers and such for it?
 

solex

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@albin

Indeed. It is realistic to say that Matt Corallo is the One Person Who Controls Bitcoin.
The four (or five if a non-public person is there) Core Dev with commit access to the repository pale in comparison.
 
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Peter R

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Aug 28, 2015
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@solex

This is news to me. My understanding was that the Relay Network didn't do full block validation, so I suspected it would relay larger blocks.

As a stop-gap measure, what would it entail to create a new relay network? Is the code open-source?

And are we sure Corallo won't fix it? It seems so bizarre that all these people who claim to want to avoid "centralization" are actually creating centralization and then actively abusing it! (They all seem to be related to Blockstream somehow too.)

This also reminds me that I was surprised at the time to see Greg push the Relay Network so hard when it first came out. I thought it was a terrible thing since it seemed to centralized control of inter-miner communication, yet Greg argued convincingly that it "levelled the playing field" for small miners.
 

solex

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@Peter R

I believe that Greg pushed the RN (as opposed to Gavin's IBLT) because he knew that once the mining power became dependent upon it, then it would be an ace to hold in any scaling power struggle. It becomes obvious in hindsight.

Last I heard is that it does not do validation. Matt wrote in the dev ml (some months ago) that he thinks it is maxed out at 1MB, and increasing the limit will mean that it will lose efficiency.

Yes, the code is open source at https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/RelayNode

Edit: Just seen a write-up: http://bitcoinrelaynetwork.org/ has a nice graphic.
Hmm. It has six strategically placed nodes. Maybe this can be replicated with BU resources.
 
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Didn't know about the relay network. Very interesting. It really has some kind of irony that the people claiming to protect bitcoin's decentralization set up a such a single point of failure.

But there's a thing I'm trying to get my head around: There are only ~100 nodes in china (https://bitnodes.21.co/). If a chinese miner wants his blocks to be propagated in the network, he needs to break through the Great Firewall very early in the process of propagation. Is this what the relay network does? It breaks the great firewall? How does it do that?

Regarding to the website the relay networks costs around 40$ for Server each month. That's not so much. In the purpose of decentralization there is a bitter need to set up more relay networks. Sure, it depends on the work it needs to be set up and maintained.

If there was a method to incentivice relay networks, maybe miners paying for some extra bandwrith (what would enable them to propagate larger blocks and get more fees). Just wild thinking ...

Something else about the GFC: wikipedia says the "golden shield" blocks more than 16.000 IP-Addresses, within most TOR-nodes and many VPN. Wouldn't it be easy to block bitcoin-blocks and transactions?
 
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solex

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@Christoph Bergmann
All good points. I don't know much more, none of my background is networking. I suspect that the mainland node feeds to the HK node which has good international connectivity.

Perhaps a BU donation address would get funds. I would donate towards this initiative if it had enough support and commitment to maintain it. Once it is up and running miners might switch knowing >1MB is possible when the XT/BU node count goes high enough.
 
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theZerg

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Aug 28, 2015
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I believe that this and related issues would have the biggest impact.
 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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D
@Roger_Murdock
TBH that "inconvenience barrier" has a name: The Relay Network.

Now, it has done good work helping the Chinese miners get their large blocks to the West and vice-versa, the downside is its centralization so that a subset of nodes have an optimal channel which most nodes lack. Perhaps we should have put in the BU Articles of Federation the concept of "node equality", all nodes must be equal for peer-to-peer data transfer functionality, the only functional difference is that some mine while many don't.

Matt Corallo will not allow the relay network to support blocks >1MB. Ideally he would have done that as soon as XT released its BIP101 patch, as evidence of impartiality. He didn't and he has the mining-power by the short and curlies.

BU will likely languish the way XT has unless one of these approaches is implemented to allow major miners to move from the existing relay network.

a) implement thin-blocks with XT
b) implement subchains
c) implement IBLT
d) crowd-fund a BU relay network which is as good as the existing one*

I think (d) is the way to go, although (a) might soon be possible. (b) might not be enough on its own, (c) might take too long to get done.

*As a temporary measure to be decommissioned when a,b,c or some combination is done.
Who's paying for the current one and how much would it cost?
[doublepost=1451989912][/doublepost]
@solex

This is news to me. My understanding was that the Relay Network didn't do full block validation, so I suspected it would relay larger blocks.

As a stop-gap measure, what would it entail to create a new relay network? Is the code open-source?

And are we sure Corallo won't fix it? It seems so bizarre that all these people who claim to want to avoid "centralization" are actually creating centralization and then actively abusing it! (They all seem to be related to Blockstream somehow too.)

This also reminds me that I was surprised at the time to see Greg push the Relay Network so hard when it first came out. I thought it was a terrible thing since it seemed to centralized control of inter-miner communication, yet Greg argued convincingly that it "levelled the playing field" for small miners.
There go the contradictions again.

But but but 'large miner large block attack versus small miner'! Buy but but @Peter R's fee market paper! Oh yeah, relay network! But but but large miner large block attack versus small miner'! Buy but but@Peter R's fee market paper! Oh yeah relay network!...
 
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solex

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Aug 22, 2015
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@cypherdoc As @YarkoL says, about $40 per month, which is made of donations.

I pledge to donate $80 for two months if someone can get 6 nodes up and running like this and replicate the RN for BU miners.
What to change the 1MB to? Maybe 3MB first off. The Chinese miners have told Jonathan Toomin they are OK with 3MB. Let them have it available.

Edit: Afterthoughts... This will need to be in a BUIP, voted and passed. So the offer stands, but of course such a deployment needs community support.
 
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freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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Chinese miners need Matt Corallo or us to fix their relaying problems?

I find it hard to believe. Sure, not many will turn down a freebie, but I think if they come to the conclusion that blocks > 1MB are a good idea for them, then this will quickly change.

And the whole idea of building more RN-like infrastructure feels wrong and futile to me.

If China develops a political problem with it, for any reason, it's toast overnight. Let the bigger market forces sort this one out.
 

_mr_e

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Aug 28, 2015
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This relay network stuff has certainly got me worried. Is anybody actually working on coding up subchains/iblt right now? Is there any kind of donation fund or movement to get this started? I think we rally need it sooner rather then later, its really sad that the deva chose a centralized approach to scaling bitcoin early on and now it explains a lot.
 
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Matthew Light

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Dec 25, 2015
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OK, I see Matt Corallo = Blockstream.

Great. :/

Obviously we need to create a non-Blockstream relay network for the Chinese miners to use that will support > 1GB blocks.

How the f*** did we let one company get in charge of all Bitcoin node / mining infrastructure development?
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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This relay network stuff has certainly got me worried. Is anybody actually working on coding up subchains/iblt right now? Is there any kind of donation fund or movement to get this started? I think we rally need it sooner rather then later, its really sad that the deva chose a centralized approach to scaling bitcoin early on and now it explains a lot.
yeah, it's really irresponsible of Corallo to promote it so hard. but then again, he's a BS employee and pushes the LMLBAVSM attack all the time like the rest of them. he's also a proven Bitcoin Bear but irresponsibly goes and makes it worse with RN. all it would take is for some state actor to DDOS their nodes to take it down. or just go seize the servers or Corallo himself. eventually i think it will be seen to have been irresponsible.
 

Inca

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Aug 28, 2015
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Excellent thread at the top of /r/bitcoin pointing out the idiocy and over complication of opt-in RBF from the perspective of honest customer and merchant.

It mirrors our BUIP thread.

Peter Todd and Luke Jr have replied thread with extremely weak rebuttals.

If this wasn't supposedly necessary for LN channels do you think this would have ever got past the 'lol you cannot be serious' stage?
 

theZerg

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Aug 28, 2015
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WRT the relay network. It can be replicated very quickly... probably in a week or less. Just a day or so with Matt's code. The real trick will be making a P2P protocol that outperforms the relay network.

@Inca: Yes, this is what I was trying to get at in the RBF thread. Is there ANY other way to solve this problem for LN? What's the actual problem? Is it increasing the fee to be "sure" (you can never be sure) a txn is committed by block N? Or something else? Here's a possible solution: "miners notice that this is an LN-related transaction, and prioritize it because LN is good for Bitcoin and therefore good for BTC price." We already have (had?) free and priority transactions that most miners respected.

No RBF needed. And BTW, if it turns out LN is BAD for miners RBF isn't going to help... they simply won't include the transaction unless the fees are egregiously high.