Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

awemany

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Aug 19, 2015
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@Norway: On your block propagation method: I would expect it to scale worse than other methods. You do a full broadcast through TCP, basically - whereas it is a lot more efficient to do broadcast over a proper broadcast medium like UDP multicast. And in the scenario where block size is constrained by bandwidth economically this will matter.

You also seem to make the mistake of identifying a small-world network with a fully connected graph in your paper with corresponding implications to this being expected to be (not) the best scheme.

But that all said, I see no reason why you couldn't code this up and test it out. It is a scheme that still seems viable in the sense of getting a block across somehow, so good luck!
 
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solex

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Aug 22, 2015
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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this is what happens when faced with economic reality :

 
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cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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I count 75% pro SV hash.

and now with prices equilibrating and the jihan demotion, I don't see a war. or at least a long lasting one.

try to stay calm. there's alot of good that can come out of this.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
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I count 75% pro SV hash.

and now with prices equilibrating and the jihan demotion, I don't see a war. or at least a long lasting one.
I'm not too informed about the whole "Jihan demotion" stuff but afaik Bitmain still sits on a shitload of BCH coins.

100% BCH HP atm still means just

* ca. 10 % of BTC HP
* ca. the HP of ViaBTC on BTC alone (less than VIABtc's HP over all)
* less than the HP of Antpool on BTC
* about 40 % of bitcoin.com + antpool + viabtc


try to stay calm. there's alot of good that can come out of this.
Staying calm is almost always the best option. ;)
[doublepost=1542201357,1542200573][/doublepost]Btw, I don't believe anything these days..
Before I heard that Jihan was being kicked out as Bitmain's director I read that he let people disappear in China.. Whatever truth there is to a restructuring of Bitmain and the IPO, there is a massive amount of FUD in the "media" these days...

Oh, and Haipo is in jail, I read that too.
And tax collectors are raiding Chinese mining farms...

Or nothing of this is true and someone is making a shitload of money in the next 48 hours.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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Scary how people in this thread start defending the absolute insanity of "recovering lost coins by miners" just because a certain cocaine addict expressed this idea.
You misunderstand. There is no possible way to avoid recovery of lost coins by miners. The only question is whether it happens in organized fashion that contributes to security or a disorganized fashion that doesn't.

@Justus Ranvier's (hope to see him back) theory is an interesting thought, except 1) there is a lot more shenanigans one can do by being able to change the protocol than not so this is actually points against conspiracy, 2) actually trying to profit from patents would mean he would want BCH to use his patented inventions so that he could sue and control miners, etc., so this actually also suggests the opposite of a conspiracy, and 3) the coin confiscation thing is a fake news as explained above (not to mention a 30-50 time horizon is pretty darn long for Calvin to hope he stays in power so as to make good on that).
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

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Feb 22, 2016
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You misunderstand. There is no possible way to avoid recovery of lost coins by miners. The only question is whether it happens in organized fashion that contributes to security or a disorganized fashion that doesn't.
There is also no possible way to avoid double spends and inflation by miners. The only question is whether it happens in organized fashion that contributes to security or a disorganized fashion that doesn't.

What the hell are you people smoking all of the sudden.
 

79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
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in some decades at most, SHA256 will be cracked (even without positing emergence of QC). hence extant SHA256 cryptos will have to migrate to other security algorithms. abandoned coins will not migrate, and will become re-mineable (in the sense of their PK being crackable). this is what we are talking about, not some scheme to steal your coins on nov. 16.
 

79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
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i suppose the point was that burnt coins are not really burnt forever, they eventually become re-mineable (their PK becomes crackable by those with sufficient computing power), so the purported economic backing of a token generated by proof of burn is temporary at best.

i do not know how to evaluate that argument but i do know how not to mistake it for FUD.
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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no worries!

jihans caravan of miners is headed towards the remote regions of China joined by an army of Bitmain personnel with the aim of doubling Bitmain’s current 120,000 mining machines by adding 90,000 new ones to give BitcoinABC the upper hand in any hashwar.


 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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BCHSV gains ~72% on BTC. looks like some ppl are selling BCH down to gain access to BCHSV & BCHABC:


[doublepost=1542210679][/doublepost][doublepost=1542210769][/doublepost]
 

cypherdoc

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Aug 26, 2015
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BTC cracks $6000; in the wrong direction:

[doublepost=1542213099,1542212484][/doublepost]solidly above now:

 

Norway

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Sep 29, 2015
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Thanks for your reply, @awemany

You do a full broadcast through TCP, basically
This is true. The benefit is a continous process where most nodes know most of the other nodes' block candidates. When a block is found, you only have to send the coinbase tx and the header and get a near instant block propagation independent of the block size.

whereas it is a lot more efficient to do broadcast over a proper broadcast medium like UDP multicast.
Yes, I'm surprised nobody has done this yet for tx propagation. UDP is great when you don't need to know for sure that the receipient get the data.

And in the scenario where block size is constrained by bandwidth economically this will matter.
Getting rid of block propagation after a block is found, is also beneficial in the scenario where bandwidth is the constriction, right? You don't have the spikes in bandwidth anymore.

You also seem to make the mistake of identifying a small-world network with a fully connected graph in your paper with corresponding implications to this being expected to be (not) the best scheme.
I can't see how you come to this conclusion. We acknowledge that it's not a complete graph. It's a near complete graph.

From our paper:
The mining nodes of Bitcoin will seek to form a small world network, where each node is directly connected to almost all other nodes of the network.
IBS is not a block relay method, where a block is transmitted via several hops. Block relay will still be needed occasionally.
It should be clear that we don't believe it's a complete graph.

But that all said, I see no reason why you couldn't code this up and test it out. It is a scheme that still seems viable in the sense of getting a block across somehow, so good luck!
Thanks. We're just putting this idea out. If a miner wants this, he can build it.
 
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Richy_T

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Dec 27, 2015
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i suppose the point was that burnt coins are not really burnt forever, they eventually become re-mineable (their PK becomes crackable by those with sufficient computing power), so the purported economic backing of a token generated by proof of burn is temporary at best.

i do not know how to evaluate that argument but i do know how not to mistake it for FUD.
"Someone else was going to steal the coins anyway so I thought I would go ahead and steal them first?".

There will be no way to check whether coins in such a situation were moved by a hacker or by their genuine owner. The correct answer for honest actors is to do nothing.
 
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lunar

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Aug 28, 2015
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@satoshis_sockpuppet

re:lost coin. It's an interesting subject, i've not fully thought through yet. There's more elaboration here, from the recent whalepool chat.
timestamp included.


see also second section @ 54:13

RIPEMD 160 collisions will become mineable in time (somewhere between 20-40 years), hence lost, and forgotten coins will be mineable. How do we address this problem? Is it a problem?

Perhaps treasure hunters of these old addresses will act as a good canary, for weaknesses in the cryptography? The ultimate bug bounty?


#caution, the rest of the chat will probably wind you up, some good points, but Craig in dick mode.
 

79b79aa8

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Sep 22, 2015
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without really having followed any houha, my guess is that the point of bringing this whole point up was to argue that wormhole is not fully thought through.

as to the moral dilemma, i would say that since any security algorithm change will be the result of a prolonged period of planning and coordination, implemented well in advance of the time in which the computational resources required to crack the old algo come online, then coins that in the end become vulnerable may be regarded as forfeit.

in the case of outputs known to have been burnt, there is no dilemma.
 

Thomas Bakketun

New Member
Apr 4, 2018
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Thanks for your feedback @awemany.

@Norway: You do a full broadcast through TCP, basically - whereas it is a lot more efficient to do broadcast over a proper broadcast medium like UDP multicast.
No, it's not broadcasting. Candidate blocks are only streamed to nodes that has subscribed. Every subscriber will receive the exact same stream. You could actually use TCP multicast to optimize it, but far as I are aware of, multicast routing haven't been implemented on the public Internet and it seems very unlikely it ever will. If a miner wants to distribute their candidate block streaming, they could use multicast or something similar internally.
 
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satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
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We all know, that we are fucked if/when SHA256 gets broken.. Why is that a topic now? Why are 128 MB blocks a topic now (and not a longterm BS limit solution) when we do not have real demand for BCH at all? Why was SM a topic for so long (where people went through a lot of hoops to defend a obviously wrong assumption)?

Why is all this crap suffocating healthy discussion and dividing healthy communities?

Because a drug addicted, half brain dead freak managed to twist people's brain just by swinging an imaginary dick around and throwing a few mouthpieces here and there that he knows people want to hear. It's appalling to see what people like him can do to intelligent people like Ryan X Charles... And I'm astonished how eager a lot of people are to deal with this shitshow... If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. (Kudos to BU for breaking up with nChain at the right time)

btw @cypherdoc Looks as if Jihan is well, still in charge and ready to fight. Wonder where all the FUD is coming from?

I have to admit I am a bit excited to see how this plays out. This is what I would have liked to see in BTC a few years ago!