Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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My recollection of real world events is that the stress test team consulted the community. I saw multiple polls on memo and I indicated in each one that I wanted the test to be shortly after Nov 15. I did this because it is a direct way for me to provide an incentive for big blocks on the network.
@wrstuv31 : sure, slink away making more unproven claims. I looked through Memo polls and found no poll since Nov 1 which favored another test before the 15th. In the poll I linked, quite clearly the majority favored a later date (Dec 1) and was ignored because someone stepped up with a lot of money to do it earlier and they got their way.
I'll just adjust and move on.
Your original claim of a Memo poll claiming support for 10 Nov was a fabrication. Best move on, but the blockchain doesn't forget.
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@freetrader yes, "purge" was definitely too strong of a word.
I'm glad we agree on that.

But it is obvious that this is a dragon den's style like social media attack.
I believe that both sides perceive it as such.
You won't be surprised to hear that I think it originated with CSW-supporting social media voices on Twitter and Reddit.

As I explained above, the CTOR fork is an attack on a basic principle of Bitcoin Cash to reintroduce developer's consensus worse than core
If I remind you that CTOR was listed on a certain group's website as part of their roadmap for a long time. then you're going to accuse me that this group is my answer to everything.
No, it's my answer to nothing.
CTOR is technically ok - maybe not what I or the ABC and some others wanted initially (which is AOR first), but CTOR is not going to cause a technical problem. It can even be undone later if there would be a need.
It puts Graphene on an awesome footing, and I'm slightly positive about its other performance impacts down the line even if I'm not 100% convinced on those yet.

Is it absolutely necessary now? No.

Is ABC+others now choosing to include it in their fork an absolute developer centralization? No.
Let the opponents bring the hashrate, they claim miners decide.

it is accompanied by a social media campaign directed against the one guy who is a maniac asshole
Sorry, but if you want to bring up the maniac, then I will say the resistance against him is more because of the fraudulent activities he engages in and the falsehoods he propagates. We do not let those go unchallenged. I've explained why before, haven't I?

It's the typical game, people who are against developer consensus are associated with CSW, while there is a massive campaign against him, combined with what I think are voting bots.
This is an unfair characterization, I believe.
I think all sides engage in vote manipulation, and there are additional factions (Core, other coins, "buttcoiners", "nocoiners"?) trying to add to the conflict.

You can try to paint him as the victim here, but I don't buy it.

You are a good example of the damage a social media campaign can do. Usually you post very reasonable things, passionate, but objective, aware of persons, but mostly interested in Bitcoin Cash and cool, calm analysis. Since a few weeks Craig Wright or nChain is your answer to nearly everything.
Ok, I'll take that as a compliment of some sort, but with a reminder that one of the first people to actually put in effort to create a minority hard fork client when it became reasonably clear to me that BU wasn't achieving a sufficient majority of hashpower -- I am not one who LIKES to do campaign, but I will if need be.

Like against Blockstream/Core, like against nChain/Coingeek.
 
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@freetrader

If I remind you that CTOR was listed on a certain group's website as part of their roadmap for a long time. then you're going to accuse me that this group is my answer to everything.
No, it's my answer to nothing.
CTOR is technically ok - maybe not what I or the ABC and some others wanted initially (which is AOR first), but CTOR is not going to cause a technical problem. It can even be undone later if there would be a need.
It puts Graphene on an awesome footing, and I'm slightly positive about its other performance impacts down the line even if I'm not 100% convinced on those yet.

Is it absolutely necessary now? No.

Is ABC+others now choosing to include it in their fork an absolute developer centralization? No.
I'd like to see you explaining this with respect to my long post today about CTOR. If ABC would have done just AOR (as it is said they wanted) we would have a completely different situation. I think my post was good, making an important connection between a technical detail and the huge political / ideological implications ... I'm just sorry that I realized this too late ... maybe we lost hashpower consensus just for accident, because ABC themselve have not been aware of the destructive impact of bundling hard and soft forks.

Sorry, but if you want to bring up the maniac, then I will say the resistance against him is more because of the fraudulent activities he engages in and the falsehoods he propagates. We do not let those go unchallenged. I've explained why before, haven't I?
I agree, we should resist him; resist the negative marketing impact he has; resist threads; outcall his lies.

But if we replace hashpower consensus with developer consensus on the way, we will have done it for nothing. For me this is by far the biggest problem.

And, sorry, CSW is the one who happens to do what Bitmain and other mining giants should have done before: insist on hashpower consensus, while developers decided to replace it with developer consensus (maybe by accident).

Ok, I'll take that as a compliment of some sort, but with a reminder that one of the first people to actually put in effort to create a minority hard fork client when it became reasonably clear to me that BU wasn't achieving a sufficient majority of hashpower -- I am not one who LIKES to do campaign, but I will if need be.
I know. I was serious when I said I usually highly appreciate your content, and I'm used to see you on a reasonable site.
 
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wrstuv31

Member
Nov 26, 2017
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208
was ignored because someone stepped up with a lot of money to do it earlier and they got their way.
This is not what I expected to hear. I'm not upset that someone used money to express their will. The vote counted in BCH was pretty close, so they made an internal decision.
 

go1111111

Active Member
A position I've held since before BCH forked away from BTC is that it would be in the best interests of any diehard BTC miners to try to kill BCH.
Maybe, but it's in the interests of any holder of pre-fork Bitcoin to let both BCH and BTC enact their distinct strategies because it results in them being rich in the most possible futures. And it's in the interest of such holders to punish miners who act against user/investor interests.

1) As markets can be irrational in the short term, the fork arbitrage process can take years to play out (not mere minutes/hours as I had thought) as BCH, assuming it eventually succeeds, would demonstrate.
I'm not sure you can chalk up the long resolution of the BTC/BCH fork to irrationality. Sometimes the future is just legitimately uncertain.

I do think crypto prices tend to imply less than prices in the legacy financial markets because of the difficulty of shorting in crypto (more accurately: some platforms let you short coins but it requires a lot more risk because those platforms are relatively sketchy and more likely to steal your coins / get hacked / etc. than traditional financial institutions).

2) Miners, having large sunk costs into a specific hashing algorithm, seem to have more incentive to steward the chain over the long term than investors who can jump in and out.
The mining ecosystem is more vulnerable to the error of one rich, irrational person. If Calvin Ayre wants to spend only a million USD per day, he can make it unprofitable for any other rational miner to mine BCH. If other people want to profit off of Ayre's mistake they can't easily do so.

However in a market situation where Ayre is trying to prop up the price of BSV by buying it or trading futures, then anyone in the world who likes money can drain Ayre of his wealth.

To bring this back to SV miners specifically, if they are convinced they know better than the market in the short term and they either have hash majority/supermajority or are willing to take a lot of pain, it is in their interests to thwart any split attempt, even though that is arguably at odds with the interests of investors in the near term seeking fork arbitrage.
I don't think this follows unless chain splits are somehow extremely value destroying. If Ayre believes BSV is better and will prove itself in the long run, and if he knows the market disagrees, it seems like the best thing he can do for his own self interest is to allow a chain split and then buy up lots of cheap BSV as it's dumped by the market. He might be able to ~10x his amount of coins based on current futures markets.
 
This is all too funny. I'm totally excited now. Finally, we are where we wanted to be the whole time: A brave miner says no to developer consensus. That this miner is a maniac makes it just more entertaining.

@Mengerian

My question if you support replacing the proposals for the next fork with an end of the UAHF, was serious. It was not made to attack you, but to give you a chance to rebuild trust that ABC supports hashrate consensus again.

If Bitcoin Cash is just another "developer consensus coin", like every coin, and competes by developers creating smart technology to scale a ghosttown, it is not very interesting. At least for me. Everybody can have his own view and opinion. Mine is that getting rid of developer consensus is what makes Bitcoin Cash important. If this is really proofen, Bitcoin Cash will be the onliest coin that resists consensus through exchange lettering and social media. That's something to compete with!

I already smell a lot of BTC supporters getting interested. A lot of them remember vaguely, that they liked hashpower consensus, but Core educated them that it is not possible. If Bitcoin Cash proofs that it is, a lot of BTC maximalists could come back. It also mixes with the acknowledgement that they have been wrong on CSW.

Exciting times!

Edit: This whole fork story made me first a bit depressive. Because I was captured in the schemes of the old games: exchange letters deciding about consensus, by trusting developer's authority and accompanied by proof of social media. Like it has been all the time. I prepared myself to join the fleet of "bcash"-sayers. That there will be at least a major resistance makes me very very optimistic about the future of Bitcoin Cash.
 
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torusJKL

Active Member
Nov 30, 2016
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"I already smell a lot of BTC supporters getting interested."

Tone Vays comes to mind.
He was very interested in this fact in his video interview of CSW.
I'm sure it needs more for him to accept BCH completaly but it is the first time I saw him remotly interested in Bitcoin Cash.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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Here's a letter I sent today to an exchange in reply for a request of contact details for their "Bitcoin Cash" listing.
Hi <name>,

Bitcoin Cash is a decentralized cryptocurrency with [no] particular team "in charge" for the coin.
Instead, there are multiple implementation teams and points of contact.

If <your exchange> is running a particular client implementation, I can forward them your request to fill out.
However, for that you would need to let me know which implementation <your exchange> is running (I assume that matters most to you for these contact details).

Alternatively I can supply you with a list of the lead developers, their public emails and other points of contact (e.g. Slack forums) for some of the various implementations (I don't know all of them).
So much for "exchange letters deciding about consensus".

If SV wins, you can prepare yourself for a set of rapid forks on their side to eliminate all vestiges of what makes Bitcoin Cash useful.
BTC is not a threat anymore. To think they need to control BCH to attack BTC is a joke. They need to control BCH in order to destroy BCH == Bitcoin.
The majority of people supporting SV today do not understand this.
They just follow the rhetoric, because it's appealing to believe, even to the point that they're willing to the actions taken. The ends justify all means.

However, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

When Bitcoin is then finally destroyed or fully centralized in terms of de facto closed source development in control of a conglomerate spearheaded by nChain, and development on top of it controlled via their IP and patents, and mining controlled by them as supermajority, you supporters of theirs get to pat yourself on the back.
 
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If SV wins, you can prepare yourself for a set of rapid forks on their side to eliminate all vestiges of what makes Bitcoin Cash useful.
Then we do a new PoW. Right now nChain's action do not eliminate usability of BCH. If CSW thinks his hashrate gives him a free pass for any bad change he wants, he'll wake up. This has always been a last ressort to deal with evil miners, which is a problem that always exist as long as bad people are free to buy miners.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
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everyone said the world would implode if Donald Trump got elected. well, he moderated, as many of us expected and we're all still here:

 

Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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I have for over a year now pondered how to clear up the massive inferential distance that has developed between me and many of the esteemed posters here regarding Craig Wright and his ideas. What a horrendous task to spill so much ink and my only prize even if I succeed is to have defended a very flawed human. As they say, small minds discuss people.

This is generally true. However, as I have been met with concerned reactions for my beliefs about this man over and over here, in this case I see no way around it. Please don't take it personally if I end up more curt than usual. Too many blandishments and circumlocutions for the sake of politeness will make this post (or these posts) intolerably long to read, but rest assured I retain the utmost respect for my fellows in this classic thread.

Let's get the elephant in the room out of the way first: Yes, folks, it's true. I not only believe beyond all reasonable doubt that CSW is the main part of Satoshi, but that he is 20 years ahead of anyone else in this space. I also contend that it is bleetingly obvious if you simply look without letting your preconceptions distort your view.

Hah, well that is the problem, isn't it? "Simply looking" is not something most people are equipped to do. It's not just a talent; it's a disposition I have cultivated since early childhood and it has cost me dearly. Humans are not designed to simply look, to really observe, to remain open to possibilities even when the possibility itself is disgusting. If we were, society would unravel. Instead the efficient thing to do is to rely on heuristics. Good preconceptions. They help you live an effective life. Where they fail is in analyzing the oddball cases like Craig Steven Wright.

Worse, there is so much to "simply look" at. This is a man with hundreds of papers, thousands of controversial claims about Bitcoin, and a frequently cavalier and almost always vexing style of speaking replete with obscure hints and what, I guess, he deems as traps for the self-proclaimed expert. (He is a dick like that.)

I assess thinkers as a hobby. See where they make errors and what kind. I do have a mental file on all of you, yes, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't think most here were exceptional thinkers I am glad to know. My assessment on CSW, sure to surprise everyone, is that his weaknesses in thinking are very few, almost the fewest of anyone I have studied (David Hume may be less). I can list his main intellectual weaknesses on one hand: 1) He should read some more Hayek and take the maturation time of spontaneous orders more seriously. 2) He has some minor semantic blur that he compensates for in hackier ways that I'd prefer (still in the top ~0.1% on avoidance of word-based errors). And that's about it. His personality flaws are numerous, but that is another story and must be kept separate. His writing and speaking style can be - sorry Craig - fucking atrocious but sometimes quite good. The variability is one of the perplexing things about him, but I'll get to that later.

Now comes the herculean task of explain convincingly why. Why have I reached the above conclusions while many or most (though conspicuously not nearly all) very smart people in this space have decided he is a blowhard who is generally full of shit and has offered nothing of value.

A few general considerations before we get into specifics. Most importantly, provisional reasoning, which is the key error most CSW-critics fall into and underpins all the rest:
Secondly, since everyone seems to have a different degree of knowledge about the facts around the man, the nature of this process is that I must proceed by making partial claims. For example, I have to first show he likely has a bunch of degrees, certifications (I believe he is the world record holder for SANS/GIAC certs, and there are more than I care to dig up), and patent applications (for those who still doubt this) before I get into the question of what value they are, why he didn't go out of his way to verify them at first (another big-picture clue to an unbiased observer, especially in hindsight), whether a rumor about such-and-such a cert is true, lapsed certs, and the whole debate about patents. I will be making claims but of necessity they will leave unanswered questions as I can only chip away at each piece by piece. Questions are encouraged!
Finally, his personality will likely be a recurring topic, as his abrasiveness makes the necessary "suspension of disbelief" for a sound provisional reckoning as described above very difficult. What do you do with a man who has an odd love-hate relationship with whether you like him, believe him, think he is smart, or think he is Satoshi? Unlike most intellectuals, he seems (most of the time; he is only human) unconcerned with the usual academic status signals.

The plagiarism is probably my favorite example. It is so alien to most people who are smart enough to try evaluating his claims that it creates a big inferential distance challenge in itself. All the usual assumptions fly out the window. You have to pin down a few things you definitely do know, such as that he would obviously realize he would be checked on such things, especially after the first time, and that it would be easy to rewrite or obscure if he cared. To overreach by assuming he is so much a fool as to not even be able to do that, whereas the ostensible reason for an academic to plagiarize in the first place is to gain recognition, turns the microscope onto the investigator more than Mr. Wright. Provisional thinking must be bias-free, until the end, and that is a massive and obvious bias to hold. Don't just rid yourself of the bias, pull on that thread. See where it leads. What are the origins? Keep track. Be curious!

I contend that the right thing to do here is to first wonder why the heck he would be so cavalier about plagiarizing, not to conclude he somehow thought he could get away with it after being called out on it so many times. (That claim leads to no big pictures that make any sense.) The reason becomes clear as you get a broader view of the man's work. 10 years ago on the InfoSec mailing lists he was constantly harping on how security is statistical and economic. He was relentlessly business-oriented despite his love of academic study.

Provisional reasoning note: If you got an image of some doofus reading tomes with no understanding and BSing his profs, think which scenario you are in. The one where he is or the one where he isn't [the main part of Satoshi]? If you auto-switched to the one where he isn't when you were meant to be in the one where he is, RED ALERT, you are far from being able to evaluate this man without heavy bias. It will take a total revamping of your thinking and probably a long break before you'll be ready. The two scenarios must be evaluated with the premise never doubted until the very end. If you are on board with this provisional reasoning process, this is the inescapable conclusion. Again this is because piece can build on one another.

Paradigm shifts are of this nature as well, one reason it is so incredibly hard for Core people to come around - each step looks ridiculous on its own and they soon give up their investigation in to the big blocker position as sheer lunacy. Another thing where provisional reasoning is essential: investing. Bull scenario and bear scenario must be evaluated without doubting each until the end. You must almost root for the bull for an hour, then root for the bear for an hour, thinking through all the implications. Finally comparing the big pictures for their persuasiveness at the end. Equivocation midway through makes a complete mess of the process, leaking bias all over the floor and walls.

-- CONTINUES, yes you might want to grab a cup of tea --
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
-- CONTINUED FROM ABOVE --

Now back to CSW's well-harped-on claim of a decade ago, "Security is statistical and economic."

Nevermind the uncanny resemblance to the key insight that enables Bitcoin, it also explains the plagiarism once you realize the main purpose of these papers is for nChain employees and his patent firm to turn them into patents. He doesn't give a rat's rectum - to use his words - whether you think he is an academic cheater. He cares that he has given enough information for a patent application to be filed and granted. (And before anyone starts, it should be plain to see that using some existing knowledge does not mean there is nothing novel in the invention.)

An intellectual this business-oriented and ruthlessly purpose-driven is rare to see.

Likely he just thinks, "I could spend an hour rewriting this or sourcing it better so that reddit doesn't complain, but my employees and attorneys will take care of any needed sourcing, and this is an hour I could be spending on the next patentable paper." Provisional reasoning hint: in the scenario where he is the main part of Satoshi, he already must feel like he got a lot of recognition and legitimacy (or his persona did; this odd dichotomy might explain his love-hate relationship with recognition). Rather, as quite a few people would know he is Satoshi, he would have seen the dark side of sycophancy. Getting loved is easy; getting really understood is not so much, as people will pretend to understand just to get into the inner circle.

This is a problem the wealthy face in general, let alone Satoshi Nakamoto himself. Being Satoshi and likely a billionaire, and looking at his 10-year-old posts not originally having given that all many fucks whether people liked him in the first place, grants a certain indifference that is foreign to most people. With his dickish personality added on top, it can really throw a wrench into communication. Most of the usual assumptions don't apply, it is hard to get a handle on the very intent and endeavor of the conversation, let alone what specific things mean.

Now, from general considerations to specifics. Since there is so much to cover, I will start by trying to clear up the myriad misunderstandings one by one, in no particular order, and see where that takes us. Some may not seem related at first. The picture should gradually form over the post or maybe many posts if I have time. I will also respond to recent miscellany along the way.

So it appears coingeek has lied about Maxwell's email:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5065996.msg47722245#msg47722245

What SV's supporters here have to say about that?

I have troubles understanding how people can support guys who are so blatantly, shamelessly and constantly lying.
I have also taken issue with some of Coingeek's reporting, and in this case I am not sure of the veracity of the article in total, but note first that Maxwell has admitted to writing the email.

The larger lesson is that things are not always what they seem. Reddit is frequently wrong or misleading in its conclusions. Most people don't have the stomach to investigate deeply, as, "Why waste your time with a fraud anyway? Why does this guy deserve such a careful analysis?" If this is mostly an incorrect conclusion, what other "lies" did you hear that weren't really lies? Also, how are we talking about Calvin rather than Craig, as if there is guilt by association? They are friends, but so were Roger and Craig just a few weeks ago. There is a reaching bias that should not just be curtailed, but noticed, tracked in oneself, stopped, and compensated for - as any bias midway through analyzing a scenario precludes all possibility of proper provisional reasoning.

You cannot evaluate properly if you keep switching the scenarios - "he is, he isn't" - on yourself unconsciously; in fact at the first sign you have started to do this, the whole investigation is nearly unrecoverable, as it has been pre-colored, like a tainted jury. It won't do to get halfway through and go, "Huh, this is ridiculous, I'm switching to the other scenario because it seems way more realistic." Evaluate at the end, not before, since the pieces are counterintuitive in isolation yet may hold together quite coherently in the end. You cannot test a chain by how it tethers when only half the links are in place. Your options are to press on to the end or give up and leave the matter open. That the process is annoyingly long and painful or seemingly pointless in this man's case is a fine reason to give up, but it is no excuse for parading the resulting half-baked opinion about as if it were fully baked.

-- CONTINUES --
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
-- CONTINUED FROM ABOVE, PART 3 --

@Mengerian You probably know by now that I'm not concern trolling. If not, feel free to press. Here's the easiest way I can explain it: like most coders ignored economics and magically thought the code was all that mattered, most of us non-lawyers (well, I think 2 or 3 here are in fact lawyers:)) have ignored law and magically thought the code and the economics were all that mattered. If you re-read my post I think I actually predict most of the reactions I got here, especially the fallacy of conflating is with ought.

I can't recall if it was here or elsewhere, but I find I am suddenly viewed as possibly not libertarian by some for merely acknowledging the fact that laws exist and that it would be better if Bitcoin stays unbanned if this is easy to avoid. Again, the microscope at first directed at me turns back on the investigator: what bias led to this odd conclusion? Something is amiss in the general thinking of bitcoiners, and I used to harbor the same bias. I like to work by finding errors and seeing what new insights I gain by removing them from my thinking. This assumption that Bitcoin is not going to be affected by law, that it will "be in the crosshairs anyway so we might as well not care at all," has proven unfounded so far, yet there is a mysterious lack of reflection on this remarkable turn of events.

Probably, just as a sick man is anxious to get at the cause of his sufferings while ill, yet once healed is often surprisingly uninterested in analyzing the causes as he moves on to the life's next challenge, I think bitcoiners were worried back in 2011-2013 and came up with all these theories, but since law enforcement has done pretty much zero since then they pay little attention to updating the theories, happy to operate on the cached conclusions from years ago whenever the matter does arise.
Do you really think they didn't blow away Bitcoin because of some legal technicality?

Come on!

They just didn't find a way to do what they did to e-gold and so many other centralized digital currencies (that is, completely destroy it without any chance of resurgence). I thought this was obvious to everyone here.
I think this was an assumption of everyone here, including me. But who here has really taken the time to re-evaluate it in light of what should be pretty shocking evidence of the past few years? Now that Bitcoin is known to everyone, it shouldn't suffice to make general arguments without any reference to timing. Even Libya hasn't banned Bitcoin.

There is the "rugged individualism" argument of Daniel Krawisz, where regulators hold bitcoins secretly themselves and hence don't ban it, but it seems a stretch to suggest this has already kicked in, in practically every country no less.

There is the "it's decentralized, can't shut it down" argument and its variant "you'd just drive it underground," but these ideas stem from another old premise: that Silk Road and the like are where Bitcoin thrives first, and that governments only grudgingly accept it many years later after it has accreted tendril-like into everything. This view seems conspicuously un-examined in light of new facts. Bitcoin wasn't banned, and in fact "blockchain" is regarded as the next wave of life-improving tech. It's like we got warped to third base and are still thinking we're still in the dugout.

I think the idea that they don't ban it "because they can't" will be dismantled shortly, as Japan and others move to outlaw all the anonymity coins.

The larger point is, are we really basing this assumption on an understanding of law? Or are we thinking magically, like the Core coders do of economics? One thing I have learned from my still early investigations into law is that it is not so arbitrary as it looks. There are certainly examples of gross arbitrariness out there, but by and large law is not "whatever congress decides." There is a lot of common law and precedent that isn't so easily dismissed by legislators, in advanced countries at least. The government, for whatever reasons, seems to vastly prefer to apply existing law to new tech. Digital signatures are treated like penned signatures. Digital tokens are treated like tokens, a legal term.

That I don't know exactly the reasons for this tendency doesn't make me want to assume it's all arbitrary, but rather update on the fact that I know little enough that I should be taking more account of legal matters. If someone raises a convincing argument that a change will dramatically affect Bitcoin's legal status, and there is no convincing refutation, that should certainly be grounds for pause. Just as a convincing economic argument that a coder doesn't fully understand and doesn't see a convincing refutation of should give them pause. Their impulse should be to learn more economics or seek expert guidance in that area, rather than to wish it away and retreat back to their coding circles.

And most of all, I think it can only be described as delusion to think a ban wouldn't set back adoption tremendously. Most aren't mainly trying to get the mafia and the dark web, most in 2018 are trying to get big business. Institutional investors. These are not entities who will say, "Oh no worries, we'll take our chances with what the government does." They want certainty. They want to see that Legal is going to approve this move.

More pressingly, the enforcement has already started. Low-hanging fruit and light penalties first, of course. Check out this thread about EtherDelta, a "smart contract" that was legally deemed an exchange and the designer prosecuted:
Note that the SEC says it will be cracking down on ICOs as well. The ICOs being decentralized systems is not deterring the SEC. Then there are privacy coins. Why this order? They are all untouchable because decentralized, right? No, the order has a specific reasoning, as some more clearly violated existing law and have clearer evidence trails than others. Maybe these will survive underground, maybe even mysteriously gaining some street cred because they are banned (not sure how, but this is another idea people have), yet Bitcoin remains on no one's radar. Let's be more curious about why!

And then, let's be really curious about why all of Bitcoin's design choices just happen to fit like a glove into existing law. And then maybe we can start getting curious about why Craig Wright has been harping on these matters ever since his - at the time odd-seeming - legal claims about Segwit. Remember? I think many of us thought, "How bizarre! This guy is like, taking seriously the idea of a digital signature as if it bore some resemblance to an actual signature? Saying miners can't leave off the sig data as that would violate some existing law about paper signatures? Sounds like he is just playing with words." What it sounds a lot like is someone intimately familiar with money-related law who took great pains to design something to not fall afoul of existing law, now seeing it ruined by hapless Core devs who give zero thought to law - or economics.

There are many more examples of this reaction from CSW. This evidence is tenuous and merely circumstantial, I know. Just file it away under Scenario A ("he is"), assuming with perfect belief that Scenario A is true, to later see how well it hangs together with the big picture. Then later do the same with Scenario B ("he isn't"), with perfect belief in Scenario B, to see how well it goes with the big picture that he's just a con. No mixing. No equivocating. You know the drill,
it is a misunderstanding to judge the situation by academic standards (i.e. from discovering that someone is being less than truthful, to infer that their work is discredited or useless). bitcoin does not come from an academic mindset.
Exactly so, my good 79b79aa8 :)
Technically, to recap the idea there is that they will mine empty blocks on the attacked (ABC) chain with sustained majority hashrate in an attempt to deny as much service to the chain as possible.
For the sake of accuracy, in today's tweets, Craig said he will unwind any transactions that do get through, presumably by something like mining empty blocks from lower and lower heights until they get back to the fork block. He aims to see any exchanges that try to use the split hurt financially. I don't know that there is any defense against this other than hashpower (barring more extreme measures like PoW change or centralized action).
It may be a small price to pay compared to letting such financial terrorists and their backers take over the network.
Now this is interesting. A split is a sort of "lifeboat scenario" where the two chains each are an existential threat to the other, just by existing. They can choose not to attack each other, but there are no guarantees. In that case, which is the attacker and which is the defender? It seems to come down to point of view, and you are saying what someone from the ABC paradigm should be expected to say.

-- CONTINUES --
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2015
1,485
5,585
-- CONTINUED FROM ABOVE, PART 4

It wasn't obvious back then. If it was obvious to you, great.
Yeah, I don't get the critique here. Everyone knew Gmax was an economic ignoramus who had bad ideas for Bitcoin, but Ledger is an academic journal and Gmax is a cryptographer of note. How was Ledger to know a developer would exert so much power as to make it strange or somehow counterproductive to include his cryptography research in Ledger? The uncanny power of Core to influence everyone, along with Theymos, was something no one predicted. We scoffed at the silly devs and assumed everyone would see past Greg and Co. Cryptographic research benefits us all, and it would have been seen as petty for Ledger to play politics, especially at that early stage when its objectivity was in question as it was seen as being led by big blockers. Getting Gmax to publish an article was the obvious move to make at the time. Makes perfect sense to me.

Now as to whether I'm a different person, no, I'm the same old ZB. I still write with essentially the same tone, don't I? Your first clue of a mind killed by tribalism would be a shift to a, well, tribal tone. I'm sure you can find some examples around here if you look. (Reddit doesn't count; I've been liable to be jerk on reddit for many years because that style is more efficient on Reddit.)

I've simply learned a lot more and I haven't kept in good contact with the group here to make it look like the very gradual process it was. Yes, most of what I have learned in the past year has been from CSW or triggered by ideas CSW has raised. I reiterate that Craig Wright is almost definitely the main inventor of Bitcoin, and unless you understand how carefully designed Bitcoin was, that isn't even 1% of what makes him so far ahead in his understanding. If time allows, I will convince you bit by bit. There is no question taboo, so please ask away. (Naturally my subject matter expertise doesn't extend to everything, especially not code, but I can answer many questions in, I believe, a much more convincing manner than you would likely have encountered thus far.)

I said I would go in random order, but I have actually started with mostly hard stuff, not the easy stuff like his points on nodes, connectivity, script capabilities, endorsements by smart people, etc. I intend to save the easy stuff for later. Let's talk about the stuff that seems most damning: patents, plagiarism, going back on his Satoshi claim, "threats" to other chains (or self-defense warnings, depending on your PoW), negative gamma, "risk, finance," whatever are the things that make you most think him a fool, a bastard, a charlatan or whatever.

I have thought about all this quite a lot, and we are nearing what appears to be the final denouement of this grand game of Risk, so I can rest assured a lot of the pieces will become clear fairly soon, in one decisive direction or another. We hopefully won't have to argue long. Though who knows, maybe even if he totally wins the hash war and is mining 128MB then 512MB blocks with no problem people will still say he's incompetent - "he just hired good devs." Well then at least you can ask those devs, having proved themselves to have technical chops. For that matter you could just ask Clemens Ley and Joannes Vermorel, but no, let's not go to the easy stuff just yet, and also it is nice to focus on facts and concepts first rather than people's opinions. (Those to me are just icing, or wake-up calls that he warrants a deeper look. Remember that Clemens are Joannes are privy to all the same facts here - plagiarism, his weird papers, etc.)
It seems like fakoshi is not quite bluffing regarding some serious hashpower: a nice percentage of the last mined blocks are by their pool (mempool.com).
Another thing I've learned about Craig: he doesn't usually bluff. It's not possible to say he never does, because he has sometimes changed plans with good ostensible reasons that cannot be checked ("would have attacked Segwit, but Jihan forked away with ABC even though we had a private agreement not to").

By the way, this is not meant to be a proper part of my "why CSW is Satoshi" post, but just an observation that may be useful in the coming days ;) One might also note that CSW having a lot of hash was considered a bluff by many a little while ago. Time to update on how bluffy he is?
There’s a general sense among smart people that CSW is about to flame out spectacularly and be ejected from the BCH community. His latest behavior is that of a cornered, desperate man.
Or just a man having too much fun in his vengeance. We already know he can be a vindictive dick. IF he is also Satoshi, do his tweets really seem so odd? :whistle:

Also, a third scenario: he gets kicked out of "the community" and doesn't care, and flames all competitors out spectacularly while he kicks off the competitive process that he thinks will professionalize Bitcoin and scale it to billions of people. That is his actual plan, by the way.

I suspect many will be surprised at just how much power miners who are fanatically dedicated to a particular ruleset can wield. Miners willing to lose heaps of money in the short run in defense of their long-term vision. Miners confident in their legal right to sanitize competitors as attackers of Bitcoin.

These are a new breed. Their like has not been seen before. Bitcoin is in new territory. The professional miners are entering, and I mean professional as a technical term, not about competence but about time horizon.

They don't call it a 51% attack, they call it a 51% defense, and it is due to the "lifeboat dynamic" I described above, which I don't think anyone can deny is a real dynamic: it really is kill or be killed, should the miners decide to be aggressive. Again, I have held this position since BTC days and don't think it conflicts with fork arbitrage being useful as well - when allowed by miners, but I hope to reply to your later reply more fully.

-- MAY CONTINUE IN FUTURE --
 
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majamalu

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Aug 28, 2015
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Paradigm shifts are of this nature as well, one reason it is so incredibly hard for Core people to come around - each step looks ridiculous on its own and they soon give up their investigation in to the big blocker position as sheer lunacy.

-- CONTINUES, yes you might want to grab a cup of tea --
How do you explain that now Core people are starting to look at CSW with sympathy? Another one of his great maneuvers that we will only understand in 20 years?
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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And how do you explain that now Core people are starting to look at CSW with sympathy?
Is he responsible for what Core thinks? Occam's razor says Gmax sees Craig as the underdog and wants to disrupt BCH by supporting him. Or he thinks Craig is a lunatic and wants him to have more power in BCH so it is destroyed. I'm not sure how that is an argument against Craig. Of all people, Gmax would be the last to understand CSW's economics-based approach to security and his heavy business orientation.
As the rest of the things that matter to me about Bitcoin Cash, yes, nChain's action are entirely destroying them.

p.s. Hashwar = no usability for indefinite amount of time.
This is empty. Any split results in a mutual existential threat. To not engage in a hashwar is to allow the other chain to kill you if they desire, if they later gain enough hashpower. Calling it nChain's action is like calling the guy without a knife the aggressor here if he throws the would-be puncturer overboard before he can kill them both with his silly plan.



Your statement is akin to, "After all, this guy has a perfectly good plan to get to the island, and he is only puncturing his side of the life raft. It's permissionless after all! If you stop him you are attacking him!!"

Both parties are under existential threat; both can be expected to kill in self-defense unless they find some reason not to be concerned, or perhaps if they want to see both experiments play out and don't care a lot about which wins. Dedicated miners are not like that. They care about their ruleset and don't want to be snuffed out. It is then kill or be killed. To paint one side as the aggressor in a split is merely political rhetoric.
 
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majamalu

Active Member
Aug 28, 2015
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@Zangelbert Bingledack

Ok, let's see a concrete example: his "debate" about intellectual property with Kinsella. Should I interpret that what appears to be a retarded child in the body of a grown man is actually a genius simulating a pitiful defence of IP? Should I conclude that he is putting forward a mysterious strategy that will only acquire meaning in 20 years?

And what about this: http://archive.is/t20d4

And what about all this: https://github.com/CultOfCraig/cult-of-craig

Sometimes you have to "simply look". Ignore Ockham's razor at your own risk.
 
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Zangelbert Bingledack

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Aug 29, 2015
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More coming, folks. Ready your toughest questions and comments intending to show why Craig is a scammer, an idiot, and definitely couldn't be Satoshi. We take this piece by piece.
[doublepost=1542001033,1542000386][/doublepost]
Ok, let's see a concrete example: his "debate" about intellectual property with Kinsella. Should I interpret that what appears to be a retarded child in the body of a grown man is actually a genius simulating a dreadful defence of IP?
That's probably the only CSW video I haven't watched, because I don't really agree with him on IP and I also find Kinsella abrasive. That said, we can talk about the specifics of his IP position, which has made me question my own to a small degree.

Still, it's important to realize that after I have seen someone demonstrate exceptional understanding of Bitcoin, unique among all people I have ever read, then no matter how much of an idiot he looks elsewhere, what is the more likely conclusion?

(a) He's an idiot who randomly stumbled upon a bunch of important insights

(b) He's a genius who just has some big blind spots

How many of the former kinds of people can you think of? How many of the latter? I can think of zero of the former, and many of the latter (Einstein was a socialist - need I go on?). Maybe others have a different experience.

Lesson: massive failure to apply Occam's razor for anyone who has seen CSW produce novel and useful insights. Idiots practically never come up with something good in a specialist field.

As to your links, @majamalu, please pick a specific claim and what you think it implies. There are dozens there. I don't think him altering dates on blog posts is particularly going to lead to me not finding him to be a genius after I have seen him be a genius. I never bothered to check whether Mises had ever forged a document, stolen a car, or lied on his resume. Should I have? There are many reasons why someone might forge a document that aren't malicious, and many that even if they were malicious don't imply any scammery nor impinge on whether his Satoshi claim was a "scam."

The most salient fact is this a super-complicated guy who has started a bunch of companies and likes to do things in a cowboy-ish and eccentric fashion. His SANS training includes leaving "poison pills" in the form of fake documents in order to trace thieves. A lot to consider here.

I'd suggest looking directly at his intellectual output, supposed errors, supposed bogus ideas, etc. as the most efficient vector of discussion here. That he changed a blog post or something is not seeming a very efficient line of inquiry to get at the heart of the matter.
 
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