Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
but, it "simplifies the transition to new consensus rules"

IOW, it makes any collusion much easier btwn a few core devs and a few mining pool operators. it kinda formalizes the closed conference room deals established by the HK agreement.
 

Mengerian

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 29, 2015
536
2,597
@cypherdoc Topological ordering means that transactions that spend outputs from other transactions within the same block must be in order. The Transactions that don't spend each other can be in any order.

CTOR, as Joannes uses it, means that all transactions are ordered by some arbitrary value like Transaction ID.

I gave a talk about this at Satoshi's Vision Conference:
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@Mengerian great talk.

so miners will skip the output validation step when receiving a new block and depend solely on previous mempool tx validation?
 

Tom Zander

Active Member
Jun 2, 2016
208
455
Hi @Mengerian its a good talk. It raised some questions for me. Maybe you have a moment to go into it?

* At 5 minutes you state that to process a block you have 3 steps. 1) add outputs to UTXO. 2) Connect the inputs. 3) Verify causal order.
This is really weird as I have not seen any implementation actually do that. Looping over the set of transactions 3 times in a row sounds really bad as you utterly destroy memory locality and thus cause a lot of swapping.

Is this idea on how to do PV the basis of the idea behind the change of the transaction order?

* What purpose is there to a "proof of absence". Where a transaction is proven to not be in a block. When would an SPV client need that?



 

79b79aa8

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2015
1,031
3,440
itBit has added BCH/USD pair for US costumers, but so far only OTC (minimum trade $100k). keen to be able to get BCH directly with USD from a source other than coinbase.
 
  • Like
Reactions: torusJKL

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
but, it "simplifies the transition to new consensus rules"

IOW, it makes any collusion much easier btwn a few core devs and a few mining pool operators. it kinda formalizes the closed conference room deals established by the HK agreement.
In addition transaction ordering (or excluding) can be done by a 3rd party and the block compiled by miners and broadcast by the pool. There is no accountability for censoring transactions in that you can not identify who is censoring transactions. as per @79b79aa8 it centralized control. while decentralizing transaction ordering which is not an issue.

Miners just use the defaults, I am still a hobby miner and I want my pool to take responsibility for the blocks they compile, that way I don't need to think about it, and when it becomes important I can move my hashrate.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@AdrianX wouldn't Betterhash force all hashers to become full nodes? that might actually hurt hash rate.

* At 5 minutes you state that to process a block you have 3 steps. 1) add outputs to UTXO. 2) Connect the inputs. 3) Verify causal order.
This is really weird as I have not seen any implementation actually do that. Looping over the set of transactions 3 times in a row sounds really bad as you utterly destroy memory locality and thus cause a lot of swapping.
i thought the point of his proposal is for miners, when receiving a new block, to avoid #3 altogether while performing #1 & #2 in parallel?

* What purpose is there to a "proof of absence". Where a transaction is proven to not be in a block. When would an SPV client need that?
i think the point is to enable something that SPV wallets have never been able to provide, independent verification of the absence of outputs that go into a tx.

@Mengerian?
 
Last edited:

Tom Zander

Active Member
Jun 2, 2016
208
455
> i think the point is to enable something that SPV wallets have never been able to provide, independent verification of the absence of outputs that go into a tx.

Sure, but in what actual situation would you want that?

I can imagine a user wanting to get a proof that a transaction is confirmed into a real block. But why would I want to create a proof that a transaction didn't get confirmed in one specific block? (notice that it doesn't prove that that transaction isn't confirmed in all the other half a million blocks).

How does this idea affect actual people?
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@Mengerian

Am I wrong in seeing similarities between your proposal and MimbleWimble?
[doublepost=1529002451][/doublepost]@Tom Zander

Well I suppose an SPV wallet user when receiving a payment can do what it has always been able to do and query multiple miners and blocks to verify a fraudulent payment.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
@cypherdoc I only have a general overview, I think some of the changes create efficiencies and some sound worthwhile. Re: "force all hashers to become full nodes" I'm not sure this will be the case, although it's sold this way. and yes it'll be less efficient with a homogenous Core node relay policy, already Core censors my transactions with their "dust limit" degrading BTC's fungibility.

How I understand it; all functions of mining would be separated. There are the SHA256 hashing boards operators they are just responsible for finding cheap electricity and connecting the boards to the internet. They will probably be directed wherever there is a marginally higher profit. (they could keep their plausible deniability while actually collecting block rewards while taking part in a 51%)

Then there are the "Miner" they will run a node it can be anyone, a home miner, Bitfury or the NSA they just compile blocks of transactions and send needed data to the hashers who look for the golden nonce.

When a "Hasher" finds a golden nonce (a block) the "Miner" sends the block hash to the pool. The pools job it to propagate the block on the network and split up the block reward among the other "Hashers".

The ability to censor transactions anonymously becomes easy, it's being sold as a benefit. Eg. the benefit is I could keep running a node on my rPi at home, (theoretically not censoring transactions) I keep running a single S9 in effect mining on my own block similar to P2Pool.

The truth is I'm compiling blocks according to the Core developers default rules and I will never find a block. The larger Miners 10MW and up will have a "Miner" optimize the blocks for them - "Miners" may even pay Hashers in addition to the block reward that goes to the hasher. Probably the LN hubs owners would become Miners, and the people who run hashing bords just become cheap electricity finders.

One aspect of Matts BetterHash proposal I don't like is this neglect of the economic incentives to optimize blocks for propagation and revenue, it socializes benefit resulting from competitive transaction optimizing strategies giving full control to the Core developers.

In a free market, those miners who better predict market rates or optimize for propagation gain market share over time as they earn more revenue (a market mechanism that rewards optimal performance). A miner who is good at optimizing fee-paying transactions or soliciting business from high paying smart contracts is not rewarded. His reward is split by the pool who broadcast the block. (socializing the function of mining) "Miners" are not rewarded directly for optimizing transactions. Matt calls this feature "decentralization" - further distorting the meaning of the most abused word in Bitcoin.

As a small miner, running my own node and compiling my own blocks I have less say in that I can't choose a pool based on its performance or its reputation, there may just as well be 1 global pool as there is nothing for pools to compete on. While I am part of an independent pool I may be providing 0.0000001% decentralized transaction selection to a pool that is supporting 99% censored transactions. The kicker is the pool is not responsible for the censoring of transactions the Miner is and the miner is anonymous, a mining LN hub cartel is sure to form should Core's roadmap actually come to fruition.

I'm glad this is not happening on the BCH chain.
 
Last edited:

Mengerian

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 29, 2015
536
2,597
i thought the point of his proposal is for miners, when receiving a new block, to avoid #3 altogether while performing #1 & #2 in parallel?
Yes, I think that's an accurate understanding.

I can imagine a user wanting to get a proof that a transaction is confirmed into a real block. But why would I want to create a proof that a transaction didn't get confirmed in one specific block? (notice that it doesn't prove that that transaction isn't confirmed in all the other half a million blocks).

How does this idea affect actual people?
Yeah, it's not something that's immediately useful without other changes. So I don't think absence proofs on their own are a good justification for transaction ordering, but can be seen as a nice side benefit. More immmediate reason for Canonical ordering is block propagation (such as Graphene)

I think that absence proofs aren't only for SPV nodes, but are a necessary pre-requisite for sharding of block creation and validation.

To provide full absence proofs, one possible use would be to move towards something like Justus Ranvier's Fraud Proofs, but that would also require the inclusion block-source information for each transaction input.

Am I wrong in seeing similarities between your proposal and MimbleWimble?
Hmmm, I can's see any relationship between those two things.
 

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
As you state, the SPV user has always been able to do that.
maybe it has to do with allowing SPV nodes to become provers of miner "fraud" to alert the entire ecosystem, something they certainly aren't capable of today?:

 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
Some nostalgia
prodhorn December 22 2017 Yes he's still in and said:
God damn. Took long enough, but we can now be certain we've seen the highest prices bitcoin will ever achieve. Long term is only down. link
time for a silverbox update

when this thread was started
Bitcoin $5.40
Gold $1,690
today
Bitcoin BTC $6,673 (up +123474 %)
or Bitcoin BCH $889 (up +16369 %)
Bitcoin Core+Cash (up ~139918 %)
Gold $1,301 (down -23 %)

I've learned a lot from Peter Schiff. He is someone I admirer for his astute and frank observations. At one stage I confused his rational reasoning for advice and I confuse @cypherdoc's passion for ego, well I'm now better able to asses all information relatively without confusing it.

I made my own index because I got frustrated with this gloating.
Bitcoin $13.57 (sold to buy Gold)
Gold $1,711. (I paid $2000 CAD)

today
BTC $6,673 (up ~49074 %)
BCH $889 (up ~6451 %)
Bitcoin Core+Cash $7561 (up ~55618 %)
Gold $1,301 (down ~24 %)
Peter Schiff is somewhat correct in his criticisms of Bitcoin Core is not much better than gold. Bitcoin Core has recreated some of the shortcomings of Gold in a digital form so I can't fault his criticism here, Bitcoin Core is not better than gold. to repeat my self I'm now better able to asses all information relatively without confusing it.

But the original Bitcoin version BCH is still better than gold.

my favorite quote:

Peter Schiff @4:47 said:
I had clients, lining to cash out their accounts and some did and go all in on crypto and Bitcoin when it was between $15,000 and $20,000, I didn't have any clients call me to put money into Bitcoin until the top...
Mr. Schiff, it's your reasoning that helped me see the investment opportunity in Bitcoin, It's your advice that caused me to lose money investing in it.
 
Last edited:

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
@cypherdoc I only have a general overview, I think some of the changes create efficiencies and some sound worthwhile. Re: "force all hashers to become full nodes" I'm not sure this will be the case, although it's sold this way. and yes it'll be less efficient with a homogenous Core node relay policy, already Core censors my transactions with their "dust limit" degrading BTC's fungibility.

How I understand it; all functions of mining would be separated. There are the SHA256 hashing boards operators they are just responsible for finding cheap electricity and connecting the boards to the internet. They will probably be directed wherever there is a marginally higher profit. (they could keep their plausible deniability while actually collecting block rewards while taking part in a 51%)

Then there are the "Miner" they will run a node it can be anyone, a home miner, Bitfury or the NSA they just compile blocks of transactions and send needed data to the hashers who look for the golden nonce.

When a "Hasher" finds a golden nonce (a block) the "Miner" sends the block hash to the pool. The pools job it to propagate the block on the network and split up the block reward among the other "Hashers".

The ability to censor transactions anonymously becomes easy, it's being sold as a benefit. Eg. the benefit is I could keep running a node on my rPi at home, (theoretically not censoring transactions) I keep running a single S9 in effect mining on my own block similar to P2Pool.

The truth is I'm compiling blocks according to the Core developers default rules and I will never find a block. The larger Miners 10MW and up will have a "Miner" optimize the blocks for them - "Miners" may even pay Hashers in addition to the block reward that goes to the hasher. Probably the LN hubs owners would become Miners, and the people who run hashing bords just become cheap electricity finders.

One aspect of Matts BetterHash proposal I don't like is this neglect of the economic incentives to optimize blocks for propagation and revenue, it socializes benefit resulting from competitive transaction optimizing strategies giving full control to the Core developers.

In a free market, those miners who better predict market rates or optimize for propagation gain market share over time as they earn more revenue (a market mechanism that rewards optimal performance). A miner who is good at optimizing fee-paying transactions or soliciting business from high paying smart contracts is not rewarded. His reward is split by the pool who broadcast the block. (socializing the function of mining) "Miners" are not rewarded directly for optimizing transactions. Matt calls this feature "decentralization" - further distorting the meaning of the most abused word in Bitcoin.

As a small miner, running my own node and compiling my own blocks I have less say in that I can't choose a pool based on its performance or its reputation, there may just as well be 1 global pool as there is nothing for pools to compete on. While I am part of an independent pool I may be providing 0.0000001% decentralized transaction selection to a pool that is supporting 99% censored transactions. The kicker is the pool is not responsible for the censoring of transactions the Miner is and the miner is anonymous, a mining LN hub cartel is sure to form should Core's roadmap actually come to fruition.

I'm glad this is not happening on the BCH chain.
i just think the base assumptions of Corallo about miners being hopelessly centralized and being a constant 51% threat to the system via a double spend are way off. i asked this question on reddit; have there ever been any other cases of a pool attempting a double spend ala ghash? where's the problem here? i think the financial incentives provided by Satoshi are stronger than Core thinks. trying to replace the entire Stratum mining protocol with a new one won't ever get off the mat afaic. we'll see.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/8oyq2e/how_mining_pools_work_with_matt_corallo/
 
  • Like
Reactions: Norway and majamalu

cypherdoc

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
5,257
12,998
i just think the base assumptions of Corallo about miners being hopelessly centralized and being a constant 51% threat to the system via a double spend are way off. i asked this question on reddit; have there ever been any other cases of a pool attempting a double spend ala ghash? where's the problem here? i think the financial incentives provided by Satoshi are stronger than Core thinks. trying to replace the entire Stratum mining protocol with a new one won't ever get off the mat afaic. we'll see.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/8oyq2e/how_mining_pools_work_with_matt_corallo/
this is actually a good listen. learned alot.

1. so Core is now advocating headers-only mining now? lol. how'd that work out for BIP66? i guess they don't want miners having to check the coinbase so Core can slip in soft forking upgrades like Segwit w/o miners having to make an active approval move such as having to update their firmware. as i said before, this is a way to make the association btwn core dev and miners more tight.
2. i guess Asicboost is now a-ok too now that Halong and Dragonmint are involved.
3. kudos to /u/awemany. Matt says his UTXO commitment work is "cool" and was largely neglected by Core due to time constraints.