Announcement - Bitcoin project to full fork to flexible blocksizes

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
I am not even going to try to answer that hypothetical question, though the very survival of the human species might be one of the few things that would convince me to change the emission schedule of Bitcoin. LOL :D
 
Last edited:

largerblocks

New Member
Mar 3, 2016
14
41
I like the idea and think it is worth a try. At least we'll learn something about full forks. I have two suggestions, one questions and an argument, why I think, it will not work.

Suggestions
1. Change the name. Satoshi's Bitcoin has no melody and confuses the name with "Satoshi", the bitcoin-cent
2. Mirco Popescu, the rumanian guy from mpex and trilema, postet sometime a suggestion to change the mining-algorithm in a way that the hashes have to contain a proof that the miners saves the blockchain. I suggest you consider this, because it brings back Satoshi's vision of Miners === Full Nodes, which is an important part to keep decentralization live when scaling to visa-level where nodes are data-centres.

Question
1. Can you outline how your full fork and the old bitcoin would interoperate? Ist it possible that transactions are received in both networks? Or would we have two separate systems with incompatible nodes / transactions?

Argument why it will not work
1. If your forkcoin comes to altcoin-markets, early adopters of bitcoin can dump their coin and nearly destroy it, just to make some profit or to destroy your coin.
Thanks for the suggestions. Responses as follows

Response to Suggestions
1. Do you have another name in mind? I thought of various options but they all sounded to be variants of "Bitcoin Classic" and that seemed confusing. "Satoshi's Bitcoin" I thought was clear in that it means the client will strive to follow the white paper. I am open to better names if anyone has one.
2. I agree with the comments below that the UXTO set is a better proof than the full history, for one thing in the future miners will likely not store the full history but track the UXTO set and recent history. Another issue is the hashing algorithm needs to be usable by SPV thin wallets, otherwise the chain is not usable with smart phones and similar devices. That would be a deal breaker for many. I've tried to keep a balance between being computationally challenging for ASIC/GPU implementations, while still being functional on light devices, that is not easy.

Response to Question
1. The full fork uses block version tags. At the fork height only versions 5 and above will be accepted and versions below this will be rejected. The code also rejects versions > 256 which are used by alternative forks (such as Classic). The block version is then used to determine block size and the PoW, with the old consensus params validated for block versions < 5 and the new consensus params for block versions >=5. This GREATLY simplified the coding effort, it also follows standard Bitcoin procedures for upgrading, only in this case the upgrade is forced.
@VeritasSapere If you put out another fork with the current PoW, please consider a block version that uses a higher order byte. This was the method Classic used. I'd recommend 0x00000100 (256).
[doublepost=1457414451][/doublepost]
I don't see how it would destroy the coin, only devalue it. But then investors can buy them off cheaply. It is form of redistribution integral to spin-off model.
Agreed, that is how I see it too.
[doublepost=1457414801][/doublepost]
@YarkoL : Changing the default ports sounds interesting.

I'd like to think about the pros and cons a little here.

Pros:

* We don't get in each others way on the network: the new and old

Cons:

* everyone needs to add/modify their firewall rules. Not a problem for miners. But makes life a little more difficult for relay node operators and end users who already forgot how. Sad faces when new client does not work out of the box. Could be mitigated by publishing clear instructions.

* more code changes to point fingers at and say it's not a good thing to do

* something that would need to be co-ordinated among such fork attempts, lest they get in the way of each other (I am imagining several people trying to get on a bus all at one here)

Unfortunately I can't think of more pros/cons either way. Perhaps too tired.

It would be great if persons with businesses operating on Bitcoin (e.g. exchanges, pools) could pitch in and say whether this technical change would be favored or not.
OK, so this is how I believe the mechanics of the fork will work. BTW I plan to run multiple incremental test forks beforehand so we know for sure how the fork will behave in real time, and do not interrupt the main chain. This is very important for obvious reasons.

At the fork height old nodes and forked nodes will stay connected. However now blocks sent between them will no longer valid, this slowly lowers the trust score for cross fork P2P connections. Eventually (probably fairly quickly) old nodes will reject and drop forked nodes, and at the same time forked nodes will reject and drop old nodes.

As this happens the network will partition into two separate P2P networks with few to zero connections between them.

A challenge for the forked nodes is they will require a new IP seed list of known nodes on the new network and will need to drop the old peer list. This will be part of my later tests and coding effort. More on that later
[doublepost=1457414977,1457414273][/doublepost]
@Christoph Bergmann
I don't think the whole blockchain is a good idea and I don't know a straightforward way to use it in a mining algorithm. Apart from that imho keeping the last n blocks of the blockchain as a full node gives enough security so keeping the whole blockchain isn't necessary. A mining algorithm where you need the current utxo set should be preferred. Imho that's the easiest and most straightforward way.
The UTXO set is something to consider, not for the initial version but possibly for later. For now I agree that keeping it simple is the best approach.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

largerblocks

New Member
Mar 3, 2016
14
41
Good point @VeritasSapere : I also think such split-offs might need to immediately pool resources.

Unless there is some adjustment in the difficulty - but that comes with its own huge risks, no?

Anyway, this seems an interesting thread in which to discuss these ideas.
A fork has to adjust and lower the difficultly whether or not it changes the PoW. The reason is simple, there will be significant drop in hashing power.

I think the best way to handle this is to set the difficulty to the hash power some number of nodes would perform. For example we might expect that at the fork point 50 nodes would run the fork. Then based on PoW measurements we would expect those 50 nodes to perform X hashes/sec. The difficulty at the fork point would then be set to a level where X hashes/sec should find a block every 10 minutes.

From there the difficulty will auto-adjust up or down as usual. If lots of people joined the network there might be fast blocks till it adjusts, if lots of people drop off blocks would slow. Basically we should expect variability and let the auto-adjust work as it should.
[doublepost=1457418048][/doublepost]
Without looking at the dark gravity wave just yet (thanks for the tip - will definitely study), I'd have some constraints that I would wish any fork to preserve:

- keep coin supply at 21M (easy to effect)
- converge back to the planned emission schedule in a stable way after temporary re-adjustment

According to Wikipedia, Bitcoin's supply is estimated to be mined to completion somewhere between the years 2110–40.

My view is that a feasible approach is to plan a given timeframe (in number of blocks) by when the emission rate must be "back on track". I don't know if that should 3 months, 6 months, 1 year or more. Or if such a magic number should not be estimated - but it appears one has to set a goal if one does not want to sacrifice re-convergence to the original plan.

Interesting problem.
Good points and I agree with what needs to be preserved

I think the emission schedule should be "back on track" much faster than 3 or 6 months.

Right now the difficulty adjustment is limited to increase or decrease by a factor of 4 at the most, this might require several difficulty adjustments to find the right level. At the fork point it might be best increase this band to for example a factor of 10 or more. This would let the difficulty auto adjust after just a few adjustments, much less than 3 months. Otherwise we might have an extended period where miners were receiving fast blocks which might make the fork look dishonest. Again this is something I'd like to make sure we get right after tests.
[doublepost=1457418427,1457417722][/doublepost]Status update:

The coding work for the blocksize adjustment, new PoW and hard fork at a specific height is now complete. I am running tests this week and get back with results by the weekend. The initial fork trials will make sure that a single node connected to the P2P network changes the rules at the specific height and starts to successfully mine and build a new chain on its own. This node will obviously be rejected the by the main network and will run as a network of a single node, but this will verify if the single node functions as it should.

After that the next set of coding work will be to switch to a new seed list and new peer set after the fork, so that the forked nodes can find each other. The tests at that point will be to show that 10ish nodes can run on the main network, fork independently at the same time, then find each other and run as an independent separate network.

If that all works as it should, we can go more public with this effort. Again the goal is to have a few "practice forks" to verify it works before the real fork.
 
Last edited:

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
I do not think the POW algorithm should be changed, this is very important. I have explained my reasoning more thoroughly here:

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip015-decentralize-mining-with-the-fair-pow-algorithm-and-an-user-configurable-pow-setting.809/page-2#post-12996

That thread also discusses the possibility of a POW algorithm change. I also think that it is still to early to take such an action. Classic might still be adopted by the miners and it does seems like there is more community support now as well.
@VeritasSapere I tend to agree when we talk about Bitcoin, but if you think about this, it's a Spin-Off, its going to be competition to Bitcoin.

It has the same distribution as bitcoin today, it has very few coins left for distributing, its effectively going to survive as an Altcoin if it doesn't supersede bitcoin.

Long term its going to have better fundamentals if bitcoin does not reform its governance issues. the ASIC resistant here gives more time to resolve that issue. I see this as a bonus, but a risk too, if someone does develop an ASIC its going to centralize very fast so I like the idea of changing the algorithm every few years to prevent such an outcome.

I think having a new algorithm will attract more miners.
 

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
@largerblocks You would gain my complete support if you decided to put out two versions, I suppose otherwise I would aim to do so myself any way creating a parallel project, we might as well work together. Considering that we pretty much agree besides that one parameter. I suspect there are a lot people that feel strongly enough about this as well on both sides of the arguments to create two new chains on this date, and if you are correct the original POW algorithm chain will swiftly just be attacked and destroyed anyway. ;)

If it is not then my arguments could have more merit, it will be good to put this to the test.

In regards to a binary option, it is in part why I favor keeping the original POW, it is more simple only changing the blocksize limit, and difficulty adjustment out of necessity I should say. Changing the POW has far reaching consequences and represents much more complexion, and in my opinion a reset of the Bitcoin experiment, not changing the POW I would consider more of a continuation giving the market a real choice for bigger blocks while allowing the miners to return to the real Bitcoin which when it becomes the longest chain for all intends and purposes would be Bitcoin again. That would not be the case with a POW algorithm change however.

Having three chains does add more complexion but it will be able to capture everyone's thinking representing a more complete spectrum of free choice, after all this project should be an expression of that very volunteerism.

I will still do a thorough write up of this issue countering some of the points you made in your post, so that we have a good source to point towards for the reasoning behind not changing the POW. I plan to be very thorough so that is why I will do so on a day when I have more time. For now I will say if you do decide to put out two forks I think that would be great, you would have my full support, of both chains by the way and I will work to promote this project as well, I post often on Bitcointalk so I can help in that regard as well.

I hope we can do this under the same banner so to speak, otherwise like I said I will start another project in parallel since I do feel very strongly about this issue. I also think that the first of may is a better date as @satoshis_sockpuppet mentioned, that day also has certain historic significance that would make it a fitting day for such an action.
@VeritasSapere I too have invested a notable amount of capital in Bitcoin mining hardware, I also have the unfortunate pleasure of giving away my old GPU farm (4 PC's and 8GPU's)

As much as I'd like to use my existing hardware I can get behind this project because it has a different mining algorithm. I still think I would have an advantage over many new miners having experienced the bitcoin growth from 2011, I think this could do the same.

is VertCoin a Spin-off?
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@VeritasSapere It has the same distribution as bitcoin today, it has very few coins left for distributing, its effectively going to survive as an Altcoin if it doesn't supersede bitcoin.
I think it's about the perceived future value even of those 25% unmined coins... if the new fork gains the current value (after some time) and then takes off on the growth path of good scaling, the few coins mined in this hardfork turbulence might be sufficient remuneration for those miners stepping up.

Although perhaps the overall reward of that happening for the major hashpowers that would later re-join is simply too generous - I don't know.

My thinking though would be that it might put them out of business just being on the wrong fork for a while, thereby teaching them an important economic lesson, and fixing the problem of miners not understanding what can happen if they don't pay attention to what the market wants.

I think we might find out though that China nationalizes them or sth., to avoid losing them entirely (no way you can decentralize a mining farm in a jiffy)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
Going to float another idea for a non-extreme hardfork in this thread, because it seems the best place to discuss without cluttering GCBU.

What about a hardfork that doesn't radically alter the POW permanently, but for a given time (let's say 1 month or the guesstimate equivalent in blocks) uses an inverted SHA256d. A little temporary "twist" on Satoshi's design. One might also be able to weave inverted and regular hashes into the blockchain in a way that degrades but does not completely eliminate the viability of existing miners to mine the chain. I think in software the code changes need not be extensive.

That would be sufficient to put ASICs on the back bench for a while - they can't refit their farms so quickly, giving the fork a decentralized headstart.

Kind of like a reset button, but not altering the POW to the extent that would make current ASIC development completely obsolete. In fact, it would be severe on miners, not so much on chip factories. Inversion logic is cheap to add to hardware, but hardware is expensive and slow to roll out.

If this has been discussed before, excuse my ignorance.

My intention with this is not long-term ASIC-resistance, obviously. I think that is a separate and worthwhile topic of exploration, and one that @largerblocks seems to be addressing already.
 
Last edited:

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
I am happy to discuss the POW change and the motivations for it. What I don't want to get into is a long discussion of "you shouldn't change the POW", because that is the direction for this project.
Fair enough, which is why we are starting a new project in parallel that will also fork but not change the PoW algorithm.
However I don't think it is practical. If the branch is much smaller than the main chain (which it will be initially) then doing so opens the branch up to attacks that are easy for a main chain miner to start. For example if the minority branch has 1000th the value of the main chain, then any 0.1% miner could successfully 51% attack the branch.
I think the security of any chain will simply always reflect the value of the block reward. Therefore a minority branch that has 1000th the value of the main chain. Will be just as expensive to attack whether you are using GPU/CPU or ASIC's. It does not actually matter, security scales with value. Which also means that the reward for attacking such a blockchain tends to be in line with how much it costs to attack it, in most cases making fifty one percent attacks irrational. Since they are also ineffectual, these type of attacks can not be sustained, in most cases the blockchain survives as long as the community of people behind it believe in it enough. Therefore it does not matter whether ASIC's or GPU/CPU's are used the actual cost should be the same, not including some of the more intrinsically secure aspects of ASIC's when compared to consumer hardware.

Furthermore a genesis fork that does not change the PoW does not represent as much as a threat to Bitcoin miners compared to what you are proposing. Since the can easily point their already existing hardware to the new genesis fork and profit as it gains value, possible even bringing in more value overall for SHA256 mining. I think most miners will be very agnostic about the chains they mine just like they are in the altcoin world because they will just chase the best profitability they can find, multipools can also help to bring about this equilibrium in profitability.
Yes there are some alt coins using SHA256, but none of them are real threats to Bitcoin. If one did become a threat it would probably be attacked. So far out of all of the alt coins that have real traction (i.e. the top 5 alts) none use SHA256 mining.
I would consider many of the top five coins to be real threats to Bitcoin. Ethereum's recent rise might even be able to be attributed to the failure to increase the blocksize in Bitcoin. Another example might the cryptonight family of coins, they are all in competition with each other yet they do not attack each other. Miners are self interested, instead of wasting money on attacking another coin they can just join a multipool instead and profit.
This project directly attacks the main branch, so it is likely there would be more interest in attacking it. Changing the POW is one level of protection.
Changing the PoW does not add any protection since the level of the security is based on the value of the block reward, or in other words the value of the coin. I would argue that ASIC's are actually inherently more secure because it is less liquid, more dependent on the success of that specific algorithm compared to consumer hardware, placing stronger incentives on those miners.

While also increasing the security of the network more by increasing the hashing power significantly compared to using consumer grade hardware which would already be in the possession of any would be attackers, there also lies an extra cost, therefore greater security.
2) Changing the POW is meant to create a risk to the miner community. If a new-POW branch starts to gain traction, hopefully that will motivate more to increase the block size, rather than to keep blocks artificially small and risk a different branch taking over.
I do actually agree with you on this point, and I do respect your efforts.
3) I believe the optimizations that were possible with SHA256 make for a very unfair and unbalanced mining community, and has been a main factor in the centralization we have seen.
I do not see how the algorithm has anything to do with what we are seeing now. I think the early transitional stages when we go from consumer grade hardware to ASIC's is the most dangerous because of the limited access and competition for the development of these ASIC's chips. It is the centralization of manufacturing that is one of the greatest pressures of mining centralization, along with economies of scale. Making ASIC's harder to develop would actually increase this centralization pressure.

The situation now is actually improving, since there are more competing companies that are or will sell to the larger public, and I even think that the SHA256 ASIC's themselves will be further commodified into different types of consumer hardware further increasing decentralization. This process would take much longer, and be greatly hindered if the PoW algorithm is changed to a highly ASIC resistant algorithm. Increasing the centralization pressures during this critical transition period in the cryptocurrencies evolution. If we also see this an inevitable evolution towards ASIC's then by changing the PoW we are setting that chain back significantly in terms of this evolution.

We could even imagine a future where there are multiple chain forks of Bitcoin, each using the same hashing algorithm, however all combined contributing to the decentralization of manufacturing, helping to ensure a more healthy ecosystem for all.
I believe we can do better than SHA256 and other alt coin attempts, to create a mining algorithm that after full optimization still has more balanced and fair economics. I am basing this view on past experience in porting many software algorithms to FPGA and ASIC implementations (which is a very specialized skill set) and having an intuitive understanding of what types of algorithms are difficult and/or not worthwhile to fully convert to power hungry ASICs.
I do not see how changing the algorithm makes the economics more fair. It does not matter, at the end of the day all that matters is equipment cost and electricity cost. Does making the equipment more expensive the economics more fair? I do not think that is the case, I think cheaper ASIC development cost would lead to greater decentralization and commodification as I mentioned before.
The POW I am creating will after fully optimized have characteristics similar to the FPGA era of Bitcoin mining, during this era capital costs were much higher than electricity costs and low cost electricity was not as much as an advantage. This POW will also likely not fully optimize to an FPGA, but to a low power CPU core connected to external low power DRAM. This will produce a better environment IMHO.
I am not convinced that this was the case because of the hardware that was used. I think you might be mistaken in the economics that brought about that situation. The only time that cryptocurrencies become very profitable to mine, meaning electricity cost are not as important, allowing for continues expansion, is when the infrastructure is still catching up to the rising value of the cryptocurrency. It does not matter what type of equipment is being used, whether it is ASIC's, FPGA or GPU/CPU it will always "centralize" towards cheap electricity. Even in the altcoin world GPU/CPU mining had become unprofitable for most home miners exactly because much of the hashpower had moved into large GPU farms that have access to cheap electricity. This only changed with the introduction of Ethereum, now it is profitable again for home users but the infrastructure is already catching up again. As you can see from this example, this "centralization" towards the lowest electricity cost is inevitable just like the development of ASIC's.
Most people probably doubt this and that is fine, all I can say is I will put this out there and we'll see what happens.
I feel the same way, and that is very much in the spirit of open source, we will also release a genesis fork that we think is a better option for the market compared to changing the PoW.
 
Last edited:

VeritasSapere

Active Member
Nov 16, 2015
511
1,266
The experiment that Bitcoin represents in PoW decentralized governance is very important and unprecedented. If we change the PoW algorithm now we are essentially resetting the experiment, however if we are resetting the experiment because it has failed, why should not try and do the same thing again, since it would be logical to think that it would fail again for these same reasons. This is in part why I think changing the PoW is not the answer besides all of the benefits ASIC's bring. We can split without changing the PoW algorithm allowing users to express their choice through what chain they give value, which the miners will simply follow, it is also such a waste to throw away over a billion dollars of investment, which has gone into securing Bitcoin. This is what gives Bitcoin value, if we split without changing the PoW algorithm then we keep that advantage and value in the ecosystem while also giving users the choice of a scalable Bitcoin.

I suppose I also think that creating a genesis fork that keeps the PoW algorithm continues the Bitcoin experiment, while changing the PoW algorithm represents a discontinuation of that experiment, more like a reset. Like I said before resetting the experiment does not make sense to me, since if the experiment has failed, then the solution to this problem most likely is to be found in the altcoins.

If the genesis fork becomes the longest chain again due to the SHA256 mining power rejoining the scalable Bitcoin then for all intends and purposes it will be the Bitcoin as described in the whitepaper. However this would not be the case with a genesis fork that changes the PoW algorithm. It can even be considered more closely related to an altcoin compared to actually being Bitcoin so to speak, not that it really matters just being a case of semantics. However it is worth considering that such a genesis fork without a great amount of adoption is not actually very competitive compared to the other altcoins, they have much more going for them, besides of course the distribution of the genesis fork.

I would argue that being able to share in the advantages of an already established ASIC industry and the great security that this can offer in terms of hashpower and required infrastructure, is one of the main advantages that a genesis fork can have over the altcoins, exactly because of this network effect of mining.
[doublepost=1457557690,1457556967][/doublepost]
That is much too complicated and unforeseeable imho.
It seems like a pretty simple solution to me, it works. A very different philosophy to Bitcoin, which is why it is best implemented as an altcoin. Which answers your question @AdrianX, its not a spin off, its an altcoin, it has its own ledger and genesis block, though it has been mined for some time now like this so its distribution is pretty good for an altcoin at that level of market capitalization. :)
 
Last edited:

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
@VeritasSapere I respectfully disagree with most (or all) of your points.

The experiment that Bitcoin represents in PoW decentralized governance is very important and unprecedented. If we change the PoW algorithm now we are essentially resetting the experiment, however if we are resetting the experiment because it has failed, why should not try and do the same thing again, since it would be logical to think that it would fail again for these same reasons.
PoW is part of Bitcoins essentials but not the particular PoW algorithm used. PoS vs. PoW would be a reset and a change in principles, the change of PoW merely a parameter adjustment, definitely not
a reset. It has always been part of the design if SHA256 would have been cracked for example.

In the second part you make wrong assumptions, 1. that Bitcoin failed and 2. that something
like the current situation must happen again.

  1. If you see a fork by a PoW change as a part of Bitcoins methods to solve governance issues, Bitcoin hasn't failed yet. It is just at a critical point.
  2. As I said before, if you change the PoW to make current mining hardware (worth millions) worthless and succeed, you set a precedence, that future miners are always in fear of losing their investments if the act against the wishes of users. This is why I don't think an asic resistant PoW is necessary (although I think it would be a nice addon) at all. You just have to make the current generation of asics worthless. Some advantage for asics might be desirable actually.

This is what gives Bitcoin value, if we split without changing the PoW algorithm then we keep that advantage and value in the ecosystem while also giving users the choice of a scalable Bitcoin.
Mining hardware doesn't give Bitcoin value, it's peoples trust. In the end it's always the users
of a currency that make it valueable. A split with the same PoW will fail anyways, see below.

However it is worth considering that such a genesis fork without a great amount of adoption is not actually very competitive compared to the other altcoins, they have much more going for them, besides of course the distribution of the genesis fork.
A genesis fork will already have a huge advantage over altcoins, all Bitcoin users/holders are
potentially users/holders of your fork. ATM all altcoins are competition to your bitcoin holdings, if you aren't equally diversified. Apart from the current governance issues I think that genesis forks should be the way to create new altcoins with new features. You have the chance to get Bitcoiners on board, and if your fork is traded somehow, you have the chance to get new people into your fork if it isn't priced at a high level from the start.

I would argue that being able to share in the advantages of an already established ASIC industry and the great security that this can offer in terms of hashpower and required infrastructure, is one of the main advantages that a genesis fork can have over the altcoins, exactly because of this network effect of mining.
Just now, we are seeing that the current generation of the guys, who should secure the network, are actually endangering the network and peoples holdings. By the way, I think some ASIC advantage in PoW might very well be important, so people with a lot of commong computing power (NSA etc.) don't have a chance to undermine (haha) your coin.


For your belive, that a Bitcoin fork with the same PoW might coexist:
Assume we fork away from Bitcoin with some success, let's say the coin is traded at some exchanges
and the new chain B has about 5% of the hashpower of the main chain A. What hinders Blockstream to take some of their VC money and pay a A chain miner from time to time to mess up chain B? They will never let a coin coexist if they can prevent it.

Your argument, that Altcoins with the same PoW coexist is a weak argument b/c none of these altcoins are any danger to Blockstream at the moment. If they were, they were eaten by tomorrow.

Furthermore, I think a change in PoW which would give hobbyists a chance to mine for some time, would lead to quicker adaption of the new chain.



It seems like a pretty simple solution to me, it works. A very different philosophy to Bitcoin, which is why it is best implemented as an altcoin.
Who defines when "an asic is developed" is true? But anyways, this should be another topic imho :)
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@satoshis_sockpuppet :

It seems to me this is a time of learning, and testing hypotheses and assumptions.
I offer the following hypothesis:

If a POW-retaining 2MB HF fork manages to win the market over, then it's worth a try.

I believe somewhat in second chances. The miners have never first-hand witnessed a non-elective intentional hard fork, and thus do not respect it sufficiently, perhaps thinking it's folly, no-one would do that.

So the POW-retaining HF is the soft stick, it is the wooden sword. A few blows, some might come to reason. A few miners defecting may be enough to instill the required sense in the rest - which would be problem solved.

The POW fork is the sharp sword, it is the ultima ratio. It can still be deployed when all diplomacy fails.

It's a numbers game. I've seen the numbers quoted in this thread, and at face I'd agree they look hopeless. But I think there's a dark figure lurking in the maths IMHO, and that is the number of participants willing to support HF attempts against the incumbents without the need for immediate monetary reward. A sort of goodwill factor that any challenger will receive, because of the dissatisfaction with the status quo.

There is a node network of CPUs willing to assist. Many of them already in clouds, adding a few processors and turning on mining is not out of reach.

Then there are the many who would be willing to take up the fight and join in a brief period of mining competition. You may argue we are giving them false hope, but what's the harm in trying this hand without playing the Ace right away?

I am curious to see what power level is required to effect the desired change. But at the same time I see the risk that we dilute the strength of our countermoves if we attempt to play them all simultaneously.
 

satoshis_sockpuppet

Active Member
Feb 22, 2016
776
3,312
@freetrader
If a POW-retaining 2MB HF fork manages to win the market over, then it's worth a try.
That's true anyway. :)

Why do you think, that a minority chain would not be attacked by the majority chain? There is no reason for them to let the competition survive.

Imho a "fresh" fork with a new PoW could bring in a lot of new miners and it could have a kickstarting effect. A SHA256 fork might have to much competition by former half professional bitcoin miners who would free their old rigs from dust. A new PoW would give a lot of people the chance to "mine bitcoin" in a certain timeframe. Psychologically this might be an advantage.

And btw, I think the time for soft sticks is long gone.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
I never said I don't think it would be attacked - there I am in complete agreement.
I think (rightly or wrongly) that it has a chance of survival, based on multiple factors including the demonstrated sophistication of the potential adversaries.

There is no reason for them to let the competition survive.
I can think of one good reason: to maximize long term profits and retain their leadership position in the ecosystem instead of facing the foreseeable next step which will be a genesis hard fork they cannot control using their equipment.

Then again, when have they been known to follow reason much? It's a crap shoot.

The argument for a POW-retaining fork would be the chance of continuity (minimizing technical bloat) and the chance of redemption for repentant miners, with the benefit of potential rapid securing of the new chain (if enough miners can be convinced it's worthwhile). There is a bit of face-saving to go around.

The potential for new miners is very similar IMHO, they wouldn't necessarily care as much about the POW being this or that, but rather the fact that coins pop out and there is a prospect of high reward.
Plus by now, many more people recognize the name Bitcoin - if they hear they can get some just by running a client at home there could be an inrush. The ability to buy comparatively inexpensive coins might also attract long-time hold-offs.

Perhaps the attractiveness of a harder POW is that the decentralization effect can be much more pronounced and durable. And I think that's a serious consideration.
But there is also the fact that a new POW is untested (SHA256d having 7 years on its belt and enjoying a high degree of confidence). A new POW would have to overcome a higher hurdle in terms of wide acceptance in and compatibility with the wider Bitcoin ecosystem.

I think a POW-retaining fork - if properly executed, could deal a very painful blow which could put some miners out of business if they act carelessly. Not that I necessarily want to see anyone leave Bitcoin - but who remains will do so on their merits (at least if this approach fails and the POW change is rolled out - the writing will be on the wall by then!)

It's definitely an escalation of conflict which hasn't been tried so far, and it's not the last resort.
 
Last edited:

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
There is definitely an option to test both, a fork and keeping the mining algorithm and forking with a change to the algorithm.

I can say nether options appeal to me, the bottom line is bitcoin is acting like it's being usurped so something has to be done.

I can't see any future with a coin that forks and keeps the same algorithm, it's a dead end.

I will however support a change in algorithm, it's entirely possible that it also sparks a new mining rase. Changing the algorithm as proposed here has two advantages, one it redistributes mining into the hands of new actors. With the right PR a much bigger tech community can benefit from bitcoin. I think it could spark all those who missed the boat to hop on board and there are a lot.

Secondly it has the added advantage of keeping mining distributed for longer.

its actually a very exciting experiment, I first considered it when i was introduced to the Spin-off idea and I think it's the best insurance policy bitcoin could have.

I expect a bit of a price bump in Bitcoin prior to the forking block height, for those who have had experience trading alts I think this is going to be epic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VeritasSapere

AdrianX

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,097
5,797
bitco.in
here is an idea someone floated on reddit.

Would it be possible to have multiple mining algorithms? say 5 separate difficulties for 5 separate mining algorithms and blocks get mined one algorithm at a time in a set order.

One of the algorithms could in fact be the existing SHA256, that way existing mining infrastructure is not lost it's just 20% effective.

this in my view would be very ASIC resistant as successfully developing an ASIC for one of teh algorithms only gives you a competitive advantage over just 20% of the total hashing power.

obviously miners who wanted a competitive advantage would need to use typical CPU based PC architecture.
 

freetrader

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 16, 2015
2,806
6,088
@AdrianX : I thought that's pretty much the FAIR (*) approach - have a ton of algorithm variants, and use something like the hash of the last block to decide on the required algorithm for the next one.

You could combine that with some sort of weighted probability together with that to tune the relative frequency of different algorithms according to global environmental conditions.

I sort of like that.

(*) https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip015-decentralize-mining-with-the-fair-pow-algorithm-and-an-user-configurable-pow-setting.809/
 
Last edited:

steffen

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
118
163
  • Like
Reactions: freetrader