Hello shills

67 speedqueen

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Mar 13, 2016
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@Zangelbert Bingledack re. "Holders can leave Bitcoin or they can just leave Core": My point's hodlers don't have that voice; they can't leave Core and chose Classic, Bitcoin simply doesn't have a mechanism (game mechanics) for that.
If you hodl BTC, you can run a Classic node, for instance ...but you can run one just as well if you don't have any coin.
Or you can mine (Classic blocks), but again, you could do that just as well hodling exactly 0 (zero) BTC.
See what I mean?
 

freetrader

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@67 speedqueen :
Bitcoin simply doesn't have a mechanism (game mechanics) for that.
Sure it has. e.g. http://bitcoinocracy.com/

Now, I don't like that website's "Decided" criteria, since it seems holders are still unaware or maybe don't want to use it, so I think current data on there is perhaps not yet very representative.

But it's a mechanism for holders to show support (though I think it has some flaws).

If you want to, you can bypass that site and directly sign a statement that accurately expresses your opinion as a holder.
 

67 speedqueen

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Mar 13, 2016
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So if I vote for Classic on that site, and my choice wins, Core will hand over the reigns and miners will be obligated to start mining Classic blocks? How does that work, exactly? Who will enforce that decision? When?

What you're suggesting isn't structurally different from "there's a Doom game mechanic for creating Word documents, you just have to alt-tab to Word whenever you need that done."
There is no mechanism within Bitcoin -- we have to step out of Bitcoin & into some d00d's website, and hope that the rest of Bitcoin players will abide by that site's decision.
Which is ludicrous.

P.S. What I'm saying, in too many words, is that allowing people to vote on a random website is meaningless without it being binding & some sort of enforcement network in place. That's why legacy fiat toilet paper world has a bigass body of law, with bloodsucking parasites known as lawyers & an enforcement body, A.K.A jackbooted thugs. Without that, or a voting mechanism within the Bitcoin protocol (in code, as in "codified," with crisp binary outcome) nothing works. You get ...what you have now: fail and AIDS.
 
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freetrader

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As I pointed out, if you don't like some d00d's centralized website (which I also don't, btw), then the option is to sign your own statement of intent, backed by as much money as you want to put behind your words, and publicize it. That's as close to a free lunch as you'll get.
How does that work, exactly?
It works by the market reacting to you and your fellow hodlers' expressed intentions. IOW, magick.

If you want to go a step further, the Bitcoin protocol allows you to put your holdings to good use through the form of transactions. I don't really see how any further mechanic is needed within Bitcoin itself.

If you do, perhaps you can suggest what you would like to see from a holder's perspective.
 
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67 speedqueen

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But you're missing the point. Let's say 99% of bitcoin hodlers want X to happen, while it's more profitable for the miners to do Y. What do your votes for X matter?
Also, see the edit.
[doublepost=1458857423][/doublepost]>If you do, perhaps you can suggest what you would like to see from a holder's perspective.
That would be like suggesting a way to turn a flyswatter into a scalpel: the best suggestion is "Scrap it; start from scratch."

Bitcoin has fundamental limitations, scaling is one (rather less serious) of them, lack of coherent governance (reliance on trusting people to be rational and play nice with each other, the problem it set out to solve), being the biggy :(
 
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freetrader

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the best suggestion is "Scrap it; start from scratch."
If sufficient holders feel this way, they can express themselves in this way to the miners they are unsatisfied with:
We, the undersigned hodlers, demand that you implement our desired feature X by date D, or we shall hard fork to a new chain with a new POW and sell our all our holdings on your chain.
Of course, we welcome reasonable negotiations.
Yours truly in Bitcoin
 
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67 speedqueen

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And the miners reply "lol, K. Best of luck."
Wat do?
[doublepost=1458859047,1458858405][/doublepost]
Just skimmed through the first two (will go back and read the context).
Both seem to pivot on the premise that since miners are rewarded in BTC, it's in their interest to keep the value of BTC as high as possible. Would be, if miners were forced to hodl (not sell for filthy fiat) their BTC. This is not the case tho.

Edit
Best case scenario for hodlers:



In reality, miners do have the upper hand because -- well, they're nowhere nearly as invested in Bitcoin as the hodlers (they would have to have over 6 bn. USD invested to *match*). In a Mexican standoff where I stand to lose 20 bucks & you, your life savings, I'd have the upper hand, correct?
 
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freetrader

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And the miners reply "lol, K. Best of luck." Wat do?
You have to actually follow through.
The good news will be - your bitcoins are already on the new fork.
Even better, you just shut out the #1 problem in your life, those pesky miners.
By selling your coin on their chain (or even just attempting to do so at 3 tx/s, haha), you probably put a good lot of them out of business.
After all, the supposition is that you represent some sort of economic majority.

Now comes the hard part: you have to convince the rest of the world that all of you (hodlers) are better than those miners.
 
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67 speedqueen

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>your bitcoins are already on the new fork. Even better, you just shut out the #1 problem in your life, those pesky miners.
*cough* and who, pray tell, is mining that fork? The ~minetrs?
But let's say a fraction of the miners decide to make less than their peers, and (presumably for lel) mine the fork that will be 51% attacked into oblivion by their less fun-loving buddies.
You remember that the difficulty won't instantly down-adjust, right?
 

freetrader

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Different ways - your fork could change POW (if you feel you as hodlers have enough clout to mine it yourselves).

Or, like you theorized, try to get some sympathetic miners on board in hopes to swing the boat.

Difficulty adjustment is a matter of software, and software can be changed in a fork.
 
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Roger_Murdock

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Dec 17, 2015
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Both seem to pivot on the premise that since miners are rewarded in BTC, it's in their interest to keep the value of BTC as high as possible. Would be, if miners were forced to hodl (not sell for filthy fiat) their BTC. This is not the case tho.
Well, it is generally in their best interest to preserve the value of BTC. Even if they sell for fiat immediately, they still don't want to see all of their expensive hardware rendered worthless as a result of a Bitcoin price crash (or equivalently, as a result of the economic majority successfully changing the PoW via a hardfork). But even if for some bizarre reason the current crop of miners had no interest in preserving BTC's value, I think the system can still work. Because there's a huge amount of potential value created by a well-managed Bitcoin network that preserves Bitcoin's ledger. Again, if miner malfeasance causes the BTC price to plunge or stagnate, that creates an opportunity for more rational investors to swoop in, acquire (at prices that are now artificially cheap) enough hash power to have a decisive impact on Bitcoin's governance, allowing them to profit from the subsequent rise in BTC's price.

Also, I think losing faith in Bitcoin's governance model, based on how the blocksize debate has played out thus far, is still very premature. See, e.g., this comment:

https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-416#post-14316
 

freetrader

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In reality, miners do have the upper hand because -- well, they're nowhere nearly as invested in Bitcoin as the hodlers (they would have to have over 6 bn. USD invested to *match*). In a Mexican standoff where I stand to lose 20 bucks & you, your life savings, I'd have the upper hand, correct?
Brilliant question, we should ask this of @SysMan - do miners see it that way?

Is this why don't you fear the holders? :)
[doublepost=1458863303,1458862359][/doublepost]@67 speedqueen : have you just deleted basically all your posts from this thread?

Because I can't see them anymore... and I have never seen it happen on this site that a user's entire posts disappear from a thread.

Paging @Bloomie for clarification - has the user deleted his posts, or what happened? :-o

EDIT: nevermind, I must have run into a forum bug. I can see speedqueen's posts again.
 
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67 speedqueen

Member
Mar 13, 2016
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Well, it is generally in their best interest to preserve the value of BTC. Even if they sell for fiat immediately, they still don't want to see all of their expensive hardware rendered worthless as a result of a Bitcoin price crash
But @ current BTC price, much of that gear is just barely turning a profit, and, after the halvening :eek:
Also, as mentioned before, it's a Mexican standoff where they hold all the cards: at worst, they lose just the (remaining) potential of their gear & whatever contractual obligations (lease, employees, power contracts, etc.) If Bitcoin survives with the SHA256, they could certainly profit handsomely by selling their hashpower to the "more rational investors" who've swooped in & acquired BTC "at prices that are now artificially cheap." :) Rinse and repeat.

I mean, given a choice between whose shoes to step in, I'd go with the miners. They're a tight-knit bunch -- what, like 9 guys controlling 90% of hashpower? They can reach a working agreement much faster & more efficiently than "the Bitcoin Community."
Might even sign one of those IRL legally binding and/or enforceable (as in not non-violent hippie) contracts, too :)
 

freetrader

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@67 speedqueen : if you're resigned to believing that the miners have ultimate control, then I'm afraid I can't convince you. But if not, you should seriously investigate the fork option, if you're a hodler who disagrees with the miners' current "working agreement".

Perhaps there will even be an announcement on Core's new mailing list when such a fork comes to be.
 
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67 speedqueen

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@freetrader: I wish you the best of luck, and there's a good chance everything will work out; Bitcoin is a fun social experiment. People, even in groups, don't always do the bases/shittiest thing they could get away with.
I remain cautiously optimistic :)



How do you resize images here , that sort of thing?
[doublepost=1458867645,1458866985][/doublepost][QUOTE="Bloomie, post: 16239, member: 1"]We now rank #4 in Google for 'bitcoin shills.'[/QUOTE]
An opportunity like this don't knock twice, can't let it go unmonetized!
BRB, I IPO NAO
 
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VeritasSapere

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Nov 16, 2015
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@67 speedqueen I will be responding to your critique of my theory of the economic majority in the next few days, just a bit busy now and I would like to give a thorough response, developing these ideas in response to a critique is always a great thing. I appreciate the critique of my theory, glad you have decided to join us in this great forum. And you are completely forgiven for the tone, I have been traumatized by Bitcointalk as well, so I feel your pain. ;)
 

Aquent

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Aug 19, 2015
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We know that seg wit already "raises the cap".
It does, but there is the question of when and how.

Segwit is still in testing and it seems unlikely it would be deployed before summer. After that of course we have the whole economy which needs to upgrade, so we are looking at autumn if we are super optimistic or next year. All three of these time lines are after the halving. That means dangers everywhere, but bitcoin being bitcoin I am sure it can handle them.

However, I prefer kissing my children rather than beating them up.

The how concerns the new potential attack vector segwit brings. As it is commonly known, actual normal space for segiwt is at around 1.6 or 1.7mb. However, an attacker is given 4mb. Next year, the hardfork is to increase maxblocksize to 2mb, with segwit on top that makes it 3.5 or so mb for normal usage, but an attacker is given 8mb. And what next, 5mb for normal users but 20 for attackers? 10mb for normal users but 100 for attackers?

The whole thing is design to make onchain scaling a punishment. It follows the same logic as flexicap whereby if miners want to increase the blocksize they have to pay a portion of their mining reward in exchange thus punishing them. So too segwit punishes everyone by incorporating a penalty in giving attackers far more blockspace than normal users.

This is all theoretical discussion though. Culprits always trip themselves. I'm not sure if you have read Edgar Allen Poe. What he rightly said is that little things betray murderers. A fallen hat, in the heat of things, an unnoticed receipt dropped from the pocket and so on, which when combined makes all obvious to all.

Reality is a merciless mistress. She, alone, rules.
 
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