Interest in Infinity Patch for BU?

Would you like AD parameter to support infinity?

  • yes

    Votes: 8 47.1%
  • no

    Votes: 7 41.2%
  • mu [4]

    Votes: 2 11.8%

  • Total voters
    17

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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After seeing @jonny1000 state that he would want to run BU if it would support setting AD to infinity [1], I wonder if there is enough interest for an "Infinity Edition" of BU (or at least a patch to that effect).

It seems straightforward to implement - accept some parameter value that will represent infinity, and output something signifying infinity in the user agent (and optionally coinbase - there is some ongoing discussion about whether signalling AD in coinbase is useful and perhaps should be removed by default / made optional).

Testing of AD=infinity can restrict itself to checking that the parameter value is accepted and signaled. No need to test whether it actually accepts infinite depth because "ain't nobody got time for that" [2], and even if they did they'd need to show that they'd have space for it (which would take an infinite amount of time to verify - see [2]).

Maybe such a patch could be crowd-funded instead of expending existing BU funds.

Perhaps it this were implemented it could increase acceptance of BU to beyond [3] its current levels.

The risks of such a setting appear very limited, since BU already supports very large values of AD.
But to be clear, what we are talking about here is supporting only the smallest ordinal infinity - nothing beyond that.

---

[1] this Reddit post

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

[3] "To infinity and beyond"


[4] Mu is meant in here in this sense.
 
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solex

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Aug 22, 2015
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The current maximum AD value is 2^32, about 4.29 billion. I have tried this in my BU node.
This setting is good for 81,715 years.
We met jonny1000 in Shenzhen and despite giving him the courtesy of debating his frivolous position he would not admit or accept that such a vast amount of time is equivalent to infinity for all practical purposes. Humouring him simply panders to his high-level strategy for seeing BU fail.
 

freetrader

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Dec 16, 2015
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Finally, some poll votes :)

Even if we don't make the assumption that block times will remain constant over those 81715 years, the number 2^32 is still very large. Large enough that if, by some yet unimaginable technological achievement, we could have a Bitcoin block every second (!!) starting now, the parameter could still express an acceptance depth equivalent to ~136 years... enough to extend well past the scheduled emission period of Bitcoin under current ~10min/block assumption, and even more so considering that at 1s/block, all remaining Bitcoins would be generated in ~75 days ;-)

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply#Projected_Bitcoins_Long_Term
 
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freetrader

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@solex : interesting, didn't know jonny1000 was in Shenzhen too. Did he happen to be in the vicinity and drop by, or do you know if his attendance was sponsored?

Point taken about not indulging in pandering.

It occurred to me after writing this not-entirely-serious OP that there is actually some value in this as a 'gedankenexperiment'. I also noted that it wouldn't need to be included in mainline BU, but could form a standalone patch.

I'm not suggesting that it would be beneficial to waste expert developers time on something like this where the benefits seem infinitesimally small ;-)

The benefit would seem mainly to defuse arguments that otherwise might gain credence, even if that is by education through discussion in a thread.
 
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solex

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@freetrader
I always welcome your threads and posts here, and creating this one is great because it can be a single place to point to in future when we get other people asking for a similar change.
We also pointed out that jonny could modify his own user-agent string to add the unicode symbol for infinity, so other users can actually see it.
He lives in HK and came over the border for the meeting evening with a few other Bitcoiners.
 
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freetrader

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Whether you unplug power or network from the wall (lunar was vague), the effect is still different from carrying on running with the setting discussed here. Just to be precise :)
 
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sgbett

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Aug 25, 2015
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would a value of 0 (or null?) make sense here? then you would only check the limit if there was one... probably oversimplifying!
 

go1111111

Active Member
I think this is important from a PR perspective. The way the software currently works, it makes it clear that the intended use case is not for users to have an effectively infinite value. To get that you need to sort of struggle against the UI.

This allows Core to say "see, the BU guys actually think it's fine for blocks be whatever size miners want (maybe after a little waiting). Look how reckless they are!" (Example: https://medium.com/@alpalpalp/bitcoin-unlimiteds-placebo-controls-6320cbc137d4#.dhi47je7w).

It'd be much better if the response could be "no, if you want that just do [a thing that the UI is designed for]" rather than a hack.