Bitcoin Unlimited with a new Genesis Block

adamstgbit

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i was thinking why not make a new altcoin with the Bitcoin Unlimited code base.

have you guys given this option any though?
is it a possibility?

I for one would be happy to be part of a new altcoin with a solid dev team.
 

adamstgbit

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right BU would be free to do as they please test assumptions on a live network, and prove a thing or two.

they could have a "stress test" at one point where a spamming node fills blocks 8MB big and show that with things like thinblocks and other improvments its not at all a problem for the network.

the idea would be to have a alt that is pretty much exactly like bitcoin expect no cap and these softforks like thinblocks and such are employed by all nodes. proving how usefull it could be to bitcoin.

They should keep working on trying to get these new features adopted by bitcoin itself, but this altcoin project would create awareness as to the validity of these idea and maybe make our BU devs portrayed in a more seriou light, everyone sees BU devs as amateurs with dangerous ideas. maybe they will be taken more seriously when BUaltcoin has a 10X price incress :cool:
 
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adamstgbit

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a HF will be seen as a hostile act and forking off with 0% hashing power is retarded.
general rule of thumb is if your HF doesn't have >75% hashing power backing it, make an altcoin.

personally if BU would HF i would shoot it down and demand its chain be put to death.
if it was an altcoin i'd buy into it.
 
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adamstgbit

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spinoffs are horrid and destroy the value of both chains, the more support the spinoff has the more damaging for both chains.

HF is only acceptable with >75% hashing power. ( even at that poeple seem to have trouble with this)

with an new altcoin your BTC saving are totaly uneffected.
undobuly the altcoin will start off with a low value and you can buy it and expect price to incress over time.

with a spinoff, you can expect the majority to DUMP their coins ASAP.

and also all kinds werid and funny things can happen when poeple start broadcasting TX from one chain to an other.

a user might send some BU coins to someone and then that some uses that BU TX to move the user's BTC.

its just too messy and very taboo.
 
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freetrader

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"I don’t like altcoins that create even more money"
-- Gavin Andresen

@adamstgbit : it seems there is some strong fear that a spin-off will damage the value of Bitcoin, even if such damage would be mostly self-inflicted ("expect the majority to DUMP").

You put yourself in that camp - why?

I asked you this question before, but since you claim your behaviour would be typical of the majority, and you're the only one who vocally advocates it on this forum, I only have you to ask ;-)
 

adamstgbit

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the problem starts with the idea that everyone's coins get "doubled"
by definition the spinoff will have less support than the real Bitcoin ( if you had the majority with you, you'd simply call it a HF not a spinoff)
so the majority of the coins will be in people's hands that want nothing to do with the spinoff, they will probably be angry you spinned off at all and DUMP these coins which they consider to be worthless.
[doublepost=1461347903][/doublepost]the more support the spin off has the more damaging it is for both chains

imagine both chains had 50% support

now how accepts what?

bitpay stays with BTC, coinpay goes with BUTC
i want to sell my shit of coins but idk if i want BTC or BUTC
i want to invest in bitcoin but what is bitcoin? is it BTC or BUTC

maybe i dont like BUTC so i DUMP
maybe the other guy dosnt like BTC so he DUMPS

everyone ends up DUMPing while newbie users are confused as fucked and investors are spooked.
both coins value will crash big time.
 
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freetrader

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I think there is terminology confusion here.
When we talk about a spin-off, it is a HF which retains the existing ledger. At least, that's what it is to me.
A hard fork doesn't have to have the majority of existing miners go along with it at all.
And a spin-off to me doesn't say anything about mining majority/minority - in the first instance it's just about the technical basis.

Obviously your concerns lie with the success (or not) of such a fork and its impact on the existing Bitcoin.

I think your assumption that such a hard fork with the current ledger will start off as viewed negatively by the existing stakeholders is something that

a) depends on the reason for the fork, ie. is not a priori true
b) not necessarily realistic

I say (b) because at first, only those truly interested in Bitcoin would know about it, most people perhaps would not even know or care. Now those who are large stakeholders and care deeply might be sufficiently interested to care about WHY the fork is happening, and would evaluate the spin-off on its merits rather than just blindly selling in a hope to eradicate a perceived attack on their value.
But I put it to you that people would first watch the market's reaction to this spin-off before deciding what to do.

Let's say you had shares in Twix. Now there's a small disagreement between the owners, and they split up into Twix Left and Twix Right. Would you immediately sell your shares in one of them?
 

adamstgbit

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the difference between HF and spinoff in this context is how mush support the fork has,

forking with the existing ledger but with a minority backing it = spinoff
forking with the existing ledger but with a majorty backing it =HF

maybe you could replace spinoff with Contentious HF and the difference and why its bad would be more clear
[doublepost=1461348868][/doublepost]you cannot gain anything close consensus so you resort to a Contentious HF.

trust me poeple will be coming after your fork with pitchforks and torches.

i guess i have no hard evidence of this happening but i have a strong feeling a "spinoff" would NOT be welcomed by the community at large.

even poeple like me who like BU will turn against it simply because you chose to fork off with a minority.
[doublepost=1461349181,1461348570][/doublepost]
I think there is terminology confusion here.
Let's say you had shares in Twix. Now there's a small disagreement between the owners, and they split up into Twix Left and Twix Right. Would you immediately sell your shares in one of them?
this wouldn't happen

the disagreement would result in Twin staying the same, and a group of poeple creating a new company.
 
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freetrader

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@adamstgbit :

Ok, let's do a thought experiment, assuming you're right and the majority thinks like you.

Contentious hard fork happens, but now we have a bad case : 50% of miners on each side, perhaps because half the miners think the fork offers a serious improvement to Bitcoin's future.

The situation is unstable, sellers dumping on either side. Mining fluctuates slightly to and fro.
This is no longer a situation where the outcome is easily predictable.

I'll tell you what I - as a holder - would do if I was unsure about the value proposition:
it would be either one of the following:

a) hold my Bitcoin on both sides and wait for the market to decide on the fundamentals, if I believe Bitcoin will be more successful after the forking. I might sell hard on one side and buy on the other as soon as I see the thing tilting noticeably.

b) sell all my Bitcoins on both sides if I believe this forking will destroy both sides

The only thing I wouldn't do is bet disproportionately on one side if I didn't have a very strong conviction as to WHY that side is better. Because that would just be gambling on pure luck. If I did that habitually chances are I wouldn't have much to invest anyway :p
 
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adamstgbit

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i'm thinking poeple will react emotionally not carefully.
both sides will think either side is doomed to fail and "hate each other" and they will both dump coins they dont like " worthless duped coins ".
it won't take more than 1-5% of the coins willing to dump at any price to seriously kill the price. only a few have to act none-carefully and BOOM!

its my belief that a Contentious hard fork will die very quickly. you might have 50% backing some project, but if you try to fork with only 50% you will suddenly see that support drop to <5%. and you WILL easily get 1-5% of the coins willing to dump at any price AND you'll have your chain under constant dos attack and 51% attack.

maybe i'm being overly dramatic, i tend to do that ... meh wtv, do it and you die.
 
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VeritasSapere

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I think the reality is that such a altcoin would not be very competitive compared to the alternative cryptocurrencies that already exist. Bitcoin really does come across like a bit of dinosaur compared to most other advanced cryptocurrencies. And there are already several altcoins with adaptive blocksizes and extremely large blocksize limits, which seem to have no detrimental effects on the cryptocurrency, just like how it was during the early days of Bitcoin when the transaction volume was much lower then the blocksize limit.

I actually think this is a good idea, just to test out theories. Though practically I would not consider such a clone of Bitcoin to gain much traction. Genesis forks however which maintain the same distribution of Bitcoin and might share some of the benefits of an already established ASIC industry would on the other hand have more to compete with.

spinoffs are horrid and destroy the value of both chains, the more support the spinoff has the more damaging for both chains.

HF is only acceptable with >75% hashing power. ( even at that poeple seem to have trouble with this)
You are using a lot of social convention in what you are saying. Talking about what is acceptable, and that people have trouble with this without actually stipulating why.

with an new altcoin your BTC saving are totaly uneffected. undobuly the altcoin will start off with a low value and you can buy it and expect price to incress over time.

with a spinoff, you can expect the majority to DUMP their coins ASAP.
Why would you expect the majority to dump their coins? Without there being any real reoson for that. More rationally even you can say that if you believed this you should dump your coins now. Since anyone can create a spin off even as a tiny minority, we should accept this as part of Bitcoins design and therefore inevitable.

The fear surrounding genesis forks reminds of the history of when the first altcoins where created and some of the more extreme reactions towards alternative cryptocurrencies at the time.

and also all kinds werid and funny things can happen when poeple start broadcasting TX from one chain to an other.

a user might send some BU coins to someone and then that some uses that BU TX to move the user's BTC.

its just too messy and very taboo.
It is true that there are still difficulties with the implementation of genisis forks but these problems are being worked on, we are looking for solutions to these problems. However if you do not care about genesis forks\spin offs. Then you can simply just ignore it with no extra risk to the coins you might already hold in the larger chain.

Here again however you are using the word taboo, culture can change over time and some taboos are irrational. I think that we can prove that this taboo is unfounded. Just like the alternative cryptocurrencies, they help to further the origanol vision of Satoshi, not set it back.

the problem starts with the idea that everyone's coins get "doubled"
For a start your coins are not doubled, A new currency is created and you will own a share of that currency based on how much you owned on the prevous chain. Multiple currencies like this do not create extra inflation in the same way that the Euro does not inflate the Dollar, they are separate currencies, just like any genesis forks/spin offs.

I think @Zangelbert Bingledack recently pointed out quite correctly that even if we do consider these currencies as one, the total percentage of the amount that you own in the ledger does not change, therefore in this case it also does not create inflation.

by definition the spinoff will have less support than the real Bitcoin ( if you had the majority with you, you'd simply call it a HF not a spinoff)
so the majority of the coins will be in people's hands that want nothing to do with the spinoff, they will probably be angry you spinned off at all and DUMP these coins which they consider to be worthless.
That would be just fine, I will hopefully be able to buy some of those coins at the very bottom of that floor. I would not mind buying thousands of genesis fork/spin off Bitcoins for a few dollars.

I think that this will be part of the market dynamics, this type of extreme volatilaty is not that uncommon for the altcoin world, in many ways the genisis fork/spin off will become just like another altcoin. I do not see what is so catastrophic about that.

the more support the spin off has the more damaging it is for both chains
Competition is healthy.

imagine both chains had 50% support

now how accepts what?

bitpay stays with BTC, coinpay goes with BUTC
i want to sell my shit of coins but idk if i want BTC or BUTC
i want to invest in bitcoin but what is bitcoin? is it BTC or BUTC
Do you invest in the alternative cryptocurrencies at all? I am asking this because I do, and I am often faced with the choice of what currency to buy, this questioning of the fundamentals of these cryptocurrencies I would consider a very positive thing. To just have to accept Bitcoin as the cryptocurrency almost seems a bit dogmatic especially considering the situation that Bitcoin now faces.

In regards to any confusion between cryptocurrencies. I would not consider this a problem, it should be pretty clear what currency you are using for payment. In the same sense that most people do not accidentally confuse Bitcoin and Litecoin for payments.

maybe i dont like BUTC so i DUMP
maybe the other guy dosnt like BTC so he DUMPS
You are describing a free cryptocurrency market, I do not see the problem with this.

everyone ends up DUMPing while newbie users are confused as fucked and investors are spooked.
both coins value will crash big time.
Maybe there will be a price shock over the short term if certain genisis forks/spin offs make a big impact. But over the long run I would consider this a positive development, placing more pressure through competition for positive change. I do not see how this is a bad thing, especially considering how it is already inevitable that these type of genisis forks will be created, we should accept it as part of Bitcoins design.
 
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VeritasSapere

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the difference between HF and spinoff in this context is how mush support the fork has,

forking with the existing ledger but with a minority backing it = spinoff
forking with the existing ledger but with a majorty backing it =HF

maybe you could replace spinoff with Contentious HF and the difference and why its bad would be more clear
I do not actually consider a contentious hard fork to be bad in any way. I think you are again applying social convention. I also do not agree with your definition. Lets say a hard fork happens, and five percent chooses to stay behind. Not accepting the new rules, then which side of the chain is really the genisis fork/spin off? The semantics in this example become more tricky. Since the smaller chain would be a resolt of the majority forking the chain, yet they should still be considered a genesis fork/spin off, of the larger chain. I think at the end of the day what matters is the fundementals of the cryptocurrency itself, the name Bitcoin is not sacrosanct, we need to see more beyond the brand and judge cryptocurrencies more on their merrit. If over the long run the genisis fork becomes the dominant cryptocurrency because it is better, then that genisis fork has made the world a better place.

You cannot gain anything close consensus so you resort to a Contentious HF.
This is possible, therefore we should already accept it as being part of Bitcoins design.

trust me poeple will be coming after your fork with pitchforks and torches.
That is not a good reoson not to do something, historically often it means you are doing something that is good.

i guess i have no hard evidence of this happening but i have a strong feeling a "spinoff" would NOT be welcomed by the community at large.
I think you are right that the a genisis fork/spin off would not be welcomed at large, however neither where the altcoins by the Bitcoin community but yet they still continue to grow.

even poeple like me who like BU will turn against it simply because you chose to fork off with a minority.
That is fine if you are against it, I do not see any reason why you would be against it though, saying you are against it because everyone else will be against is circular logic, it is better to think for yourself. Though being against something in cryptocurrency is fine, you can just ignore it. I am sure you are not one of those people that would try to attack it. Alternatives can live side by side in peace and tolerance. We should welcome competition and innovation instead of being scared of it.

the disagreement would result in Twin staying the same, and a group of poeple creating a new company.
And this is exactly what happens with a genesis fork. A new currency is simply created from the old, while the old currency/company continues to exist in competition with the new currency/company unchanged.
 
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Tsontar

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Apr 9, 2016
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it won't take more than 1-5% of the coins willing to dump at any price to seriously kill the price. only a few have to act none-carefully and BOOM!
I think all the proponents of a full-fork strategy agree that the spinoff coin is likely to lose a lot of value.

However:

1. Markets like certainty. The blocksize issue has been and remains a source of tremendous uncertainty for years. This resolves that. Each side can bet ever more confidently on its belief in fundamentals. So I would expect the total market cap of the combined coins to exceed that of Bitcoin today.

2. Even if the resulting spinoff coin only held 5% of Bitcoin's value, that would make it the #3 crypto, ahead of Ripple.
 

Zangelbert Bingledack

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@adamstgbit

There is no cause for concern in any spinoff scenario, from either side, because no one stands to lose any money (unless they proactively take a gamble). No need for pitchforks due to minority/controversial hardfork. Let's walk through a couple scenarios to see this (middle of the night in bed on my phone now so this may be a bit rough-hewn):

Scenario 1) Spinoff gets almost no traction. A negligible number of people sell their BTC to acquire more BUTC, the price change in BTC escapes notice by most people because it's well within normal daily price variation, and most people never even realize they could - for a brief time - get like 1% more BTC by being the counterparties to the few people who are interested in the fork, by selling off their BUTC shares. After that window the spinoff likely dies and for everyone who slept through it the price is right back where it was (not even down by that unnoticeable daily variance amount). Super yawnworthy.

On the off chance it doesn't die but persists within a niche community, eventually everyone who wants to trade gets a chance and that might mean a bunch of BTC holders dump their BUTC for their 1% extra gain in BTC (very soon fading to 0.1%, etc. as the BUTC price spirals down). That's as intended; that's how it gets to be a tiny niche fork after all. Anyone who complains of this 0.01% drag on BTC price is free to sell their BUTC to recover that money themselves. And if you worry of "death by a thousand cuts" due to tons of these tiny coins, note that exchanges would likely have it set up so you could very easily send your stakes in every spinoff for a specific address you own at once to the exchange and sell them all in a snap at market price. No fuss, no muss.

"Okay," you say, "but the pitchforks will really come out when the BTC price change is bigger due to a substantially supported yet still very controversial fork." Well let's see:

Scenario 2) Spinoff gains traction with 20% of holders, BTC price drops up to* 20% in a day. People go, "WTF!?" Actually no, they don't, because such a well-supported spinoff would be well known to every price watcher well in advance. In fact the exact price change might already have been anticipated in the prediction market effectively created by exchanges offering spinoff futures in BTC and BUTC. So no surprises.

But to be extra-charitable and make sure we cover all possible bases, let's suppose somehow the BTC price drops way more than expected. Say by 50%. So for example at today's price of $450 we have a sudden fall of BTC to $225 while BUTC appears at $225 also (though both are likely higher than this*).

But recall the market was already expecting something in the ballpark of a 20% shift, meaning something like BTC falling to $360 while BUTC shows up at $90. In such a case, every exchange, every wallet, every price ticker, every site like Bitcoinity and BitcoinWisdom, every merchant operator like Bitpay and Coinbase, and everyone in the know everywhere is gearing up to display something like the following as the market price:

Bitcoin total price: $450
(BTC$360:BUTC$90)

Or whatever. Maybe a handy pie chart alongside this becomes the norm. Some factions may choose to put the BTC price at the forefront, leaving the total in parentheses, or perhaps the BUTC price. I'll leave that to the interface design experts. Merchants who have no idea will get paid in both by default via Bitpay or whatever if they are too out of the loop to take sides, and even if they choose to be paid in, say, only BTC the wallet software will likely make this process nearly invisible to the user. And to the extent that merchants taking sides did result in friction they of course wouldn't do it until later when the dust settled. Their stake and profits are protected in any case if they just do the default of getting payment in both forks, a procedure wallets would of course be set up to perform by default as well.

Some confusion could happen, but remember people would anticipate this and be getting the word out in reddit and all other communities, news stories, wallet messages, etc. because of the nature of this scenario: it's major, everyone is making necessary preparations in advance if they know there is any significance chance it could be major at all. Done right, the casual user who "just wants to shop" may not even notice.

Investors who support Core may be disheartened that so many people support BU, but if so they are free to sell their BUTC at the click of a button since wallets and exchanges have already geared up for this. And vice versa for BU supporters.

Did you think they will both sell off the other causing a price crash in both? Well, only if they sell for fiat! And why would they? They would sell for their preferred spinoff, either BTC or BUTC. The total remains the same, everyone's purchasing power remains the same unless they chose to gamble or take sides prior to the price ratio stabilizing. If they take sides after the quick fork arbitrage period when the price ratio is likely stable, they also retain the exact same purchasing power.

Still pretty yawnworthy for the casual investor and user, though very exciting for the enthusiast. No pitchforks because no one ever loses money unless they stick their neck out to make a special bet on one side or the other. Core supporters simply lament the support for BU while also being happy they can go their separate ways as an investment. Core supporters will of course believe the next big bubble buy-in will be visited on BTC only while BUTC becomes a forgotten relic, and many of the more diehard supporters will sell their BUTC completely so as to cash in. They make EXTRA money here (on the assumption they are correct), above and beyond what they would have if the spinoff hadn't happened, so far from being angry they are ecstatic to have the opportunity for an "easy 50% increase" in their holdings! Likewise for BU diehards.

Can everyone not see how beautiful this solution is? All parties win (or think they will win).

If not for the censorship on /r/Bitcoin we might have come to convince Core supporters long ago that this is their hot ticket to make money at the expense of BU and Classic supporters (and vice versa). I think anyone on either side who understands this process will be in vigorous support of it, other than those who are worried about confusion and burden on wallet coders (exchanges should be happy as they get a nice cut from the trading; forward-thinking wallet coders should be happy, too, as this makes the role of the wallet a lot more substantial in the user experience since most users don't want to manage all the spinoff components themselves).

*The market is getting the free choice it had been longing for, so the combined value is likely to be higher than before; there may well ironically be a BTC price *rise* as outside investors see Bitcoin finally got its act together and resolved the central goverance issue.
 
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adamstgbit

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I still think starting fresh and not directly competing to be bitcoin, is preferable.

i think @Tsontar has a good point, but i am not sure how it would actually pan out in RL, it could be most poeple dont have a strong preference either way, and so they are faced with more uncertainty because they dont know which bitcoin fork to side on, i think if they are forced to choose between bitcoinC or bitcoinU they will choose to walk away rather then make a choice.

I believe starting a new altcoin offers a way for the market to value the other fork while avoiding all the controversy.